The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php)

- The Books (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9)

- - Master of Sauron (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=659)

Master of Sauron

Please forgive me if a similar thread exhists, but I couldn't find one.

I got the idea for this thread after reading this phrase in RotK, The Last Debate(said by Gandalf):

Quote:

Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What wether they shall have is not our to rule.

My focus is on the first part:

Quote:

Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary.

Who do you think Tolkien was talking about here? Is there any mention of it anywhere else, in his other books? It's just strange, to think that someone so incredibly powerful could have an even MORE powerful master, and that master could have an even MORE powerful master and so on, and so forth. But the pupose of this thread is just to discuss any evidence of there being someone higher in status than Sauron at the time of the War.

The references are to Melkor/Morgoth who was the original primeval evil.

He was around in the First Age, and he may be coming back some day.

You can read about him in the Silmarillion.

Ah. But it is a little strange to think that HE might even have a master? I mean, it is possible, isn't it?

Also, when Gandalf had said the phrase, it seemed like he didn't know who the master of Sauron was. I thought he would know something like that.

[ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: kittiewhirl1677 ]

Melkor was one of the Valar and had no other master than Eru, who can't really be called his "master" anyway.

Did Gandalf not know about him?

You mean "HE"-Sauron?

Yes, Morgoth was Sauron's master. Morgoth was originally a higher order of creation than Sauron, for one thing.

Then for another Morgoth led Sauron into evil.

And Gandalf knew about Morgoth. But Morgoth was long gone by the Third Age.

I suggest that you read the Silmarillion. It is very interesting and will answer many questions about the background of LOTR (including this one).

[ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

So Sauron was originally good?

Also, if Morgoth was long gone by then, wouldn't Sauron be the master? Maybe, in that case, Gandalf was talking about someone else?

I'm really not sure about this, just trying to use logic as reading the Silmarillion doesn't really work for me.

By HE I actually meant Eru. I read a little part about him in the beginning of the Silmarillion, but everything is created from something. I think it mentioned something about Eru coming from outside of all time, but still, he had to have been created somehow.

[ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: kittiewhirl1677 ]

If Eru is a God figure, then He does not have to have a beginning. Believing in God's infinitude is part of Christianity. It's inexplicable, but that's what faith is for.
Peace

Okay here we go...

Quote:

Also, if Morgoth was long gone by then, wouldn't Sauron be the master? Maybe, in that case, Gandalf was talking about someone else?

Nope, because Morgoth/Melkor was the one who taught him everything he knew and as stated earlier even with Morgoth's demise he still wasn't tottally gone. Gandlaf was most definitely referring to Morgoth, or if you wanted to get nitpicky, all the evil in the world, since evil can never truly be erased.

Quote:

I'm really not sure about this, just trying to use logic as reading the Silmarillion doesn't really work for me

What?! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] no I'm just joking...sort of...you should really take another stab at it though, it's quite amazing and it will clear up a lot of the unanswered questions of LotR.

Quote:

By HE I actually meant Eru. I read a little part about him in the beginning of the Silmarillion, but everything is created from something. I think it mentioned something about Eru coming from outside of all time, but still, he had to have been created somehow

Eru is to ME as God is to us in our real world. Eru created Melkor just as God created Satan...they were both sort of like the bad seeds...so we don't technically konw where Eru comes from but it's not really important I suppose...

In the very beginning, when the song of creation was being sung, Melkor, later Morgoth, introduced his own strain of music as discord. He was helped by other creatures (Maiar) in his song, but the discord was his. When Melkor was cast into the void his song remained. Sauron serves the discord and the discord belongs to Melkor, it was his doing.

10 imaginary points to X phial who explains things a lot better than me in far fewer words [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I still don't really get this though, how does a planet start off with a song? Forgive me for being technical, but I'm a SciFi freak and it just doesn't pass for me. I sing like 12 hours a day and don't end up creating any planets!(LOL)

Quote:

Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary.

I don't think that Gandalf was just talking about Morgoth here. Yes, Sauron was Morgoth's servant, but he was banished to the void and, as I understand it, not to return until the final battle.

The way I interpret what Gandalf is saying here is that Sauron was himself a servant of the original source of, ie Morgoth, and other servants or emissaries of that same evil may well arise, even after Sauron's defeat.

As the X-Phial said:

Quote:

When Melkor was cast into the void his song remained.

In other words, even with Morgoth's banishment to the void and Sauron presumably following him, evil will still exist in ME and others will arise who will serve it. Which makes utter sense, since I never imagined that ME would become some sort of Utopia devod of all evil following Sauron's defeat.

The question which I think kittiewhirl is asking is whether another Dark Lord of the same ilk might arise or whether evil would be resticted to the lesser beings who remained (much as is the case in are world today). The former is possible, since another Maia could become corrupted into evil ways, but the latter is, I think, the more likely.

Certainly, I do not believe that it was ever contemplated that there might be some being outside Eru's creation of greater or equal stature to Morgoth who might enter ME as some kind of fresh source of evil.

[ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Quote:

I still don't really get this though, how does a planet start off with a song? Forgive me for being technical, but I'm a SciFi freak and it just doesn't pass for me.

Well, for one thing, Tolkien did not write Science Fiction. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think that the reason song was used as the creative force is because no one can really explain exactly how you would create a planet or create life. I think that the reason music was used is because it is a powerful and beautiful force. Also, music could just be the interpretation of the creative forces which formed Ea, since to our finite human minds true creative force cannot be comprehended. Maybe Tolkien used music to explain what he otherwise could not have expressed, meaning that the music could represent something greater.
These thoughts are just my opinions. I could be wrong. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

I believe that music was used because it is a medium that can have many intricate actions going on at once. Different tones, voices, harmonies, themes, rhythms, cadence, etc. Themes can be featured, then momentarily forgotten, and brought up fresh again. It's a wonderful medium to show the almost (?) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] infinite interactions and variations that are the hallmark of life on earth. (or ME) It's also so beautiful and poetic! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But see, if Eru was good, then wouldn't he just want to create good characters. Then why can't he control Melkor and make him good? He must have had some sense, and if he knew that Melkor was going to be evil, why did he create him?

It asksess too many questionss, precious! It must stops it, lest we cruch its bonesess in our teeeethhhh.

Kittty, I must suggest the Silmarillion. Ainulindale will explain all of this in one chapter.

Iarwain

I hope you won't think I'm harping on religion, because I'm not trying to. Your question is what people have wrestled with throughout the centuries: 'Why did God(Eru) create Satan(Melkor)?' I suppose there is no answer that will completely satisfy everyone, but free will is definitely something that comes into play. Eru had a plan to advance goodness, but Melkor did not choose to follow that plan. I suppose the beauty of the human spirit is the ability to make choices, and choices for evil will obviously generate less than desirable consequences. Now I know you are thinking 'But didn't Eru know it would happen? Why didn't he stop Melkor?' In all reality, I don't think that a satisfactory answer will ever be found for why evil is allowed into the world, except for the fact that where there is darkness, whatever light there is will shine all the brighter. Again, all this is just my opinion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

kittiewhirl, I agree with Iarwain. Just try the Silm once more, and don't worry if all ethical questions are not answered. I don't think that's Tolkien's aim anyways.
Peace

Hold it, ignore the above, we're turning on to morality, my most favorite subject for discussion.

From your question we can push another that all Theists in general must ask and answer. Why would God create man if He knew that man could become evil? The answer lies in free will. If men were forced to be good, then what joy would come of their following God? On the other hand, if they were given a choice to follow or fall, greater joy and love could come of their choice to follow God. The difference is between robots and people. Push that idea into the creation of the Ainur, and you'll have yourself as sufficient an answer as you'll ever get.

Iarwain

[ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

::applause:: Hurrah, Iarwain! You answered brilliantly and concisely, something that's hard for me to do. Nice job. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

Quote:

No, he created spirits who had wills separate from his own. He could have controlled Melkor and made him good, but he didn't. Instead, he designed a world in which his will would ultimately be done - all 'dischord' will finally resolve. This is why Melkor was tossed into the Void.

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

I wish it was like this in real life... Eru created elves as his version of "living angels", and men as his version of "imperfect souls having right to choose" or something like that. When the elves had to leave ME, it kind of feels like they were created just for the purpose of helping the "imperfect souls" find the right path. Then, after they left, they couldn't return(I don't think?) and men had to be on their own from there. Am I making sense here?

You're clear as a bell, Kitty. I think part of the reason for this is that Tolkien was very interested in the idea of the Fall of man. Elves were examples of the unfallen man, while men represented reality.

Iarwain

Actually, in his letters JRRT states that the elves were also fallen. They represent the ideals of art and accomplishment, not a moral rightness. Elves in the third age are not all good. They live in a sort of neverland, trying to preserve the past and at the same time mourning that it has gone. Tolkien sees this as a fault.

Quote:

I think part of the reason for this is that Tolkien was very interested in the idea of the Fall of man. Elves were examples of the unfallen man, while men represented reality.

Indeed, I believe this was not the case.

Letter No. 153:

Quote:

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

Letter No. 131:

Quote:

I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death.

Later:

Quote:

These are the First-born, the Elves; and the Followers Men. The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning – and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed. The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world. Since the point of view of the whole cycle is the Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden': a grief and an envy to the immortal Elves.
As I say, the legendary Silmarillion is peculiar, and differs from all similar things that I know in not being anthropocentric. Its centre of view and interest is not Men but 'Elves'. Men came in inevitably : after all the author is a man, and if he has an audience they will be Men and Men must come in to our tales, as such, and not merely transfigured or partially represented as Elves, Dwarfs, Hobbits, etc. But they remain peripheral – late comers, and however growingly important, not principals.

And:

Quote:

Men are interwoven. For the most pan these are 'good Men' – families and their chiefs who rejecting the service of Evil, and hearing rumours of the Gods of the West and the High Elves, flee westward and come into contact with the Exiled Elves in the midst of their war. The Men who appear are mainly those of the Three Houses of the Fathers of them, whose chieftains become allies of the Elflords. The contact of Men and Elves already foreshadows the history of the later Ages, and a recurrent theme is the idea that in Men (as they now are) there is a strand of 'blood' and inheritance, derived from the Elves, and that the art and poetry of Men is largely dependent on it, or modified by it.

I suggest reading *all* of Letter No. 131 (in fact, I urge you to) as it goes through all of the cycles of the world and the purpose of the events important in the overall scope of the world as far as the Creator and 'gods' are concerned, and the roles of other beings in each. He specifically addresses 'falls' (a term you used):

Quote:

In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of Angels we should say. Though quite different in form, of course, to that of Christian myth. These tales are 'new', they are not directly derived from other myths and legends, but they must inevitably contain a large measure of ancient wide-spread motives or elements. After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear. There cannot be any 'story' without a fall – all stories are ultimately about the fall – at least not for human minds as we know them and have them.

So, proceeding, the Elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial. (The first fall of Man, for reasons explained, nowhere appears – Men do not come on the stage until all that is long past, and there is only a rumour that for a while they fell under the domination of the Enemy and that some repented.

Letter No. 153:

Quote:

Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them.

Letter No. 154:

Quote:

Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs. But in any case this is a tale about a war, and if war is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much good complaining that all the people on one side are against those on the other.

(highlights are mine)

Tolkien shares many, many more thoughts on this throughout the letters - I only went through about half.

When quoting Letter No. 131 in another thread, Rimbaud made a good observation that agrees with Tolkien's comments on elves - they did fall:

Quote:

his [Melkor's] was a sub-creative Fall, and hence the Elves (the representatives of sub-creation par excellence) were peculiarly his enemies and the special objects of his desire and hate - and open to his deceits. Their Fall is into possessiveness and (to a lesser degree) into perverson of their art to power.

[ May 19, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Wow, the way Tolkien creates his world is so fascinating. He actually creates his world of creatures based on what the dreams and ideals of our world are. Like, for example, men are imperfect, making wrong choices.

Other creatures kind of represent other parts of people, the way people wish to be. Like the elves, maybe, are kind of like what a human wishes to be. The only thing I'm stuck on is, why are there evil elves if this is so?

I gave this one in my previous post. Explains why elves weren't totally good.

Quote:

But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs.

Evil comes about from good intentions:

Quote:

The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines; but the problem: that this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others - speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans - is a recurrent motive.

This quote is about Melkor, but can be applied to any evil - it comes about because the benefactor(s) [elves in this question's case] thinks it would be best for his will to be done while ignoring Eru's supreme will. This will always fail because of Eru's design - the world will continue with his will and those who oppose will naturally fall.

And Iarwain gets shut down... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Oh well, I suppose Humphrey Carpenter didn't know that much about Tolkien after all.

Iarwain

Don't feel shut down! We're all learning. Did you check out Letter 131?

Wow, Legolas, thanks! That is incredible. I had no idea that so much thought went into creating Middle Earth and all of the themes woven into it. What really strikes me is that the elves are manifestations of freedoms that mankind would like to have, and that their joys and sorrows are what would come to us if we had those freedoms. A real eye-opener. Thanks again. I will definitely have to look into getting that book. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
And Iarwain, you made some really good points in the thread, so don't be shut down! This thread has really shown me alot. Thanks [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Peace

Yes, Tolkien was an eye-opener for all of us? Don't you all agree? The work he put into this all is just...amazing.

I love the nuggets of the Letters. The book reads surprisingly well, as it places the letters in chronological order. I get more insight in the Letters than i do from HOME on certain occaisions.

I love to tell my friends who are just now being introduced to LOTR vis a vis the movies, that Sauron was just a Lieutenant of a being even more powerfull. I love the look in their eyes hehe....

Sauron, although the top Lieutenant, was surely not the only one. Can anyone name the others? And was Sauron the only surviving "officer"? Where is my ME Most Wanted deck of cards when i need them? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The only other names of high powered figures that we have are Glaurung and Gothmog, and they both bit the dust.

a small deck of cards indeed

Sauron wasn't the only one? Wow. I thought it was just him, and then Morgoth on top. Sauron gives me the chills though... how could he EVER have been good?

Here is something from Letters concerning Sauron:

Letter 183

Quote:

In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desring to order all things accroding to heis own wishdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went furhter than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, beig in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit.

[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

In other words, he started becoming greedier, and greedier and finally became totally evil?

kittie,

I missed your question about why Eru created evil. I have a little different take on the matter. Here is a quote from the Silmarillion from: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valior

Quote:

'Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.' But Mandos said, 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon.'

It is through the struggle against evil that beauty not before conceived can be brought into being. Evil is the anvil that Eru uses to shape and form his Children.

As for your question about Sauron getting greedier and greedier, I wouldn't say that. He did not get greedier. He desired to control that which he had no right to control. Because he had great power, that desire to control took over. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It seems to me that Galadriel started down that path at the beginning of the Noldor Rebellion.

Quote:

No oaths she sware, but the words of Feanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will.

The rings of power were a direct result of the Elves' desire to rule and dominate their own realm. Galadriel learned from the long defeat and passed her test.

X Phial,

Actually, in his letters JRRT states that the elves were also fallen.

I seem to remember reading recently in Morgoth's Ring that Elves were an unfallen people.

By the words greedier and greedier, I in fact, meant more of greedy for control. Need for domination. Prestige. Power, etc.

Quote:

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Wow, you DO NOT want to know how much that quote is used in Star Trek: TNG and how familliar I am with it. No matter the giant differences between Star Trek and LOTR, the quote applies to both equally. It's really quite fascinating.