The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - ** Discussions on the General Changes of FOG **

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** Discussions on the General Changes of FOG **

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FG-16 KO
Orc/Orcs to Ork/Orks following Tolkien's stated preference and use in his latest writings.
The spelling change, if made, would be far less troublesome to readers than is Tolkien's change from goblin in The Hobbit to orc in LR.

This change as discussed is not going to be. Orc is to be retained.

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FG-23 KO
Compare the similar and possibly related use of Doriad instead of earlier Doriath in "The Wanderings of Húrin". This needs investigation.

I'm not sure if this one is approved.

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FG-29
Thorn Sir to Thoron Sîr. This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomish to their QS77 and LR Sindarin forms, but I'm not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.

Not sure about this one too.

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FG-30
Bad Uthwen, the Elvish name of the "Way of Escape". "The Etymologies" gives:
BAT- tread. * báta : ON bata beaten track, pathway; EN bâd.
But does Uthwen still exist in Sindarin in any form? If kept, it probably should appear as Bâd Uthwen with the circumflex accent. Can be dropped as uncertain.

We had already voted on this: Way of Escape

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FG-31
Gar Ainion. I originally thought to retain this. The logic was that Gar Lossion 'Place of Flowers' occurs as the Gnomish name of Alalminórë, replacing an earlier Losgar. This would not necessarily mean Losgar was incorrect, rather that Tolkien had replaced one correct form with another using the same Elvish words, 'Flower-place' by 'Place of Flowers'. Since Losgar occurs in the later Silmarillion tradition as the name of the place where Fëanor burned the ships, presumably gar is still valid Sindarin meaning 'place'.
However upon closer examination the later 'Losgar' cannot mean 'Flower-place' which would be Lothgar. If gar means 'place' still, it might mean 'Snow-place' or 'Snow-white place'. But I find nothing anywhere indicating what meaning Tolkien intended for this place-name, and the fact that the first element must now have a different meaning does not give me any confidence that the last element has the same meaning as in Gnomish.
Indeed from "Etymologies" from GAR-, listed under 3AR-, there is only Noldorin/Sindarin garo- , gerin I hold, have; garn 'own', property.
Nothing indicating 'place', and no form gar. Accordingly should almost certainly be dropped. It only occurs twice, both times in apposition to "the Place of the Ainur", so removal creates no problems.
So we remove Gar Ainion in our version.

Is Gar Ainion going to be removed or not?

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FG-32
Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form

How about this?

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FG-33
Tarnin Austa, the Elvish name for the festival "Gates of Summer". Neither of the elements appears in extant later Sindarin. But there is also no conflict. (The place name Tarn Aeluin is a mixed form in which tarn is the English word meaning 'small mountain lake'.) Sindarin tarn meaning 'gate' might exist. Austa is not impossibly an alternate name for 'summer' alongside laer. Can be dropped as uncertain.

And this one?

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This change as discussed is not going to be. Orc is to be retained.

Yes. I noticed, though, that in what I think is supposed to be the most up to date text in the private forum, 'Orc' is consistently changed to 'Ork'. It'll have to be changed back. (Or - it's quite possible that I've been looking at the wrong text. I was looking at "Antoine's Fall of Gondolin Formatted". Which one is the most up to date anyway?)

Doriad:

This one was ruled out. There is no change of Doriath>Doriad in Wanderings or anywhere. There are changes Gwareth>Gwared and Echoriath>Echoriad, which at one point led me (at least) to suspect some general final change th>d in Sindarin. But "Doriath" appears in the same text as "Echoriad", so we must be dealing with isolated word changes instead of a systematic change.

Thoron Siiir (triple i for circumflex):

I think this one is good, but we might have a vote.

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We had already voted on this: Way of Escape

Right.

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Is Gar Ainion going to be removed or not?

I think so. It could still be valid, but it's a bit dubious.

Gwarestrin:

I think we'll probably keep this. The other option would be *Gwaraectrin.

Tarnin Austa:

I'd prefer to keep it, but there's been no consensus yet.

How are we to differentiate between:

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FG-08
Indor to Galdor

In this case it refers to the father of Huor, Galdor and
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin

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There were those of the Tree, and they were a great house, and their raiment was green. They fought with iron-studded clubs or with slings, and their lord Galdor was held the most valiant of all the Gondothlim save Turgon alone.

Galdor of the Tree.

Regarding Galdor: I don't see any need for concern. There are simply two characters named Galdor. It will be quite clear that they are different characters, especially since one will have been killed already and the other is introduced here quite clearly as an Elf of Gondolin.

Perhaps a footnote is needed in that case?

How about:
Nost-na-Lothion or "Birth of Flowers". Are we going to use this?

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I agree with Aiwendil. The attentive/confused reader can refer to geneaologies if in doubt.

re: Nost-na-Lothion - I would like to see Aiwendil and any other linguists offer their thoughts.

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I have been unable to plunge myself very deeply back into FoG3 lately and I apologize for any delay this may be/is causing. I am trying to re-establish exactly where I was and what I was thinking when I last bbroke off.

One thing however I wouldlike to note is that we now have parallel workspaces for FoG 3. There was an **official** thread that Aiwendil and I were posting on some months ago, and now Maedhros has begun a new one, with quite a few ideas already being worked on [I am glad to say].

I suppose it is too late to merge the two, so I pulled the newer one into the Public forum where all discussions of changes are to take place. I will prob retitle it **FoG 3b** or something in order to maintain continuity and lock the older thread to minimize confusion.

Any questions on that?

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Originally posted by lindil I suppose it is too late to merge the two, so I pulled the newer one into the Public forum where all discussions of changes are to take place. I will prob retitle it **FoG 3b** or something in order to maintain continuity and lock the older thread to minimize confusion.

Hmmmm, that is my fault actually. The proposed changes were supposed to be discussed here. I worked late at night so I missed that.
I'm not confortable with having the main text in the public forum, so here is a suggestion:
Leave in the Private Forum the First Text, along with the explanation of the changes and the Revised Text with it's changes explanation. The other posts should be on the Thread that you closed.

I cannot improve upon Jallanite's original comments on the names "Tarnin Austa" and "Nost-na-Lothion":

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Nost-na-Lothion. Translated 'Birth of Flowers'. In "Etymologies" under NO¯- 'beget' occurs Noldorin form noss 'house', example Nos Finrod 'House of Finrod'. In BolT 1 under Duilin, appears nos 'house' as well as related forms nosta- 'be born', nost 'birth; blood, high birth; birthday', and nôs 'birthday'. Nost appears only in this citation and the name Nost-na-Lothion, none of the 'birth' forms appears later, so it is not at all clear that Tolkien would have considered it still valid. But no other words meaning "born" or "birth" are given by Tolkien, so this might still stand.

Tarnin Austa, the Elvish name for the festival "Gates of Summer". Neither of the elements appears in extant later Sindarin. But there is also no conflict. (The place name Tarn Aeluin is a mixed form in which tarn is the English word meaning 'small mountain lake'.) Sindarin tarn meaning 'gate' might exist. Austa is not impossibly an alternate name for 'summer' alongside laer. Can be dropped as uncertain.

Both are old terms based at least in part upon old etymologies of which there is no later sign. But in neither case is there any overt conflict.