The Bridge Of Khazad-dum
 

Was the Balrog small enough to cross the bridge? If not then maybe Gandalf could have just run out and left it, thus avoiding death.

It is a difficult matter to discuss the actual size of a balrog, being a creature of shadow and flame, an evil spirit covered in flames.
They are described as "man-like" except that fire streamed from them, and they were swathed in dark shadow.
If you take this litteraly, a balrog would have the size of a man, and he would be able to cross the bridge.
But "men-like" could also describe their appearance, and not the size. It could look like a man, but ten times bigger than a man.

Hey, maybe he was to big to cross the bridge, but he could fly over it! But that leads us to another discussion... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

The bridge was big enough to let men cross more or less fast and comfortably, and the Balrog was of "man-shape, yet greater", so, yes. The Balrog was already standing on the bridge, too. If it got narrower towards the middle, he might have had to leap.
And though I consider it unlikely, I would not categorily rule out the possibility that he might have been able to fly.

Even if the balrog was twice the size of a man (I think it says this in the fall of Gondolin of balrogs being twice man high) it should have had no problem crossing the bridge. This is shown by the fact that it did in fact go onto the bridge and began to cross, it took Gandalf's breaking the bridge to stop its advance.

Balrogs were almost certainly not actually as big as the one in the movie. I think it probably could have pursued them as long as it wished.

In the movie, it did not make sense for Gandalf to stop on the bridge and challenge the Balrog, because it could almost certainly not have gone out the exit they escaped through, which was just big enough for someone of human or orc size to pass.

Considering the balrog was there for quite some time, and it certainly knew the bridge was there, I would doubt that it would have attempted to cross the bridge if it was not able to do so. Also, it may have used this bridge when the dwarves were exterminated .

Foot by foot? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] If it did have wings (I'm not saying it does) it was to too small a place to fly back up, and on the Watch Tower Gandalf defeated it. Maybe it did have wings.

Lord of Angmar, you are right. Just another movie mistake.

I've always wondered why Gandalf stared down at teh Balrog when it was falling. If he hadn't done that, he wouldn't have been grabbed.
[img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

yeah, I have to agree [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] And some parts in the movie are weak, but thats what you get i spose for turning a fantasy book into a movie.

Yes, I agree that when you turn a book into a movie, it is invariably very inferior... I don't think people should do this!!! Books are much better than movies. Always. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I have always thought that, yes, Gandalf could have escaped (in both the book and the movie), but he chose not too. It could be that he had to face the balrog of Morgoth, perhaps as it was fated, or perhaps it was his final test before becoming 'Gandalf the White,' but that is entirely another discussion.

Balrogs are fallen Maiar, are they not? I believe they could make it onto or across a bridges without much difficulty. And, yes, the film most likely exaggerated the size of the balrog greatly. Plus, I am sure the dwarves build bridges that are quite efficient in their purpose. What I wonder is...can balrogs burrow? Okay, nevermind, I'm going off on another discussion here. Unless anyone would like to discuss the possibility of balrogs burrowing? Eh? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ August 18, 2003: Message edited by: Durelin ]

I think the reason that Gandalf stayed to fight the balrog rather than running away from it was because he knew that it needed to be killed, and he was the only one who could have defeated at that moment. He didn't want the balrog to overcome its shyness and come out of Moria and start attacking things (especially Lothlorien) so he stayed to defeat it. No-one else in the fellowship could have defeated it, and only a few others in middle earth could have done so (Glorfindel maybe others) but the elves were leaving and may not have cared or been bothered to fight a balrog.

Another reason why I think that Gandalf "had" to defeat the Balrog was that I think he had some kind of thought (similar to thinking Gollum had a additional part to play). That told him that the only way that Sauron would be distroyed was if he took on the Balrog, defeated it, and was "reborn".

If it was not to make the story more interesting, I am sure Tolkien would have never allowed the Old Wizard to fall down after being hit by the Balrog's wip. He had already defeated the evil being and should have been able to invoke a spell not to fall down.
My guess is that Tolkien wanted to make him more human, though being so powerful he just lost his balance.
If he could defeat or stand up to Ring Wraiths he could certainly stand up to Balrogs.

You don't mean to say you think a Ring Wraith is more powerful then a Balrog,do you?

The Balrogs are Maiar, the same order as Gandalf and the other Istari. The Nazgul are merely Men corrupted by Sauron. The Balrogs are definitely more powerful than the Nazgul. It should have been the other way around.

Welcome to the Downs, samrohan! Enjoy being dead!
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[ August 21, 2003: Message edited by: Lhunardawen ]

i think the balrogs are described to be men of fire
so i guess he could easily cross the bridge of khazad dum if aragorn and boromir could croos it

so i think gandalf did the right thing by stopping and destroying the balrog thus ending the menace of the dwarves forever

Balrogs are just a tad bigger than men [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
And Balrogs are Maiar, not just men.

The Balrog would have to have been at least the width of a Man, because I'm sure I read somewhere that the Bridge was wide enough for Dwarves and Men to cross in single file.

Perhaps Balrogs are particularly lanky? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I don't know, I kind of liked the way they did it in the movie. Again, PJ had to appeal to everyone, and if the Balrog was just a slightly-taller man-sized being, then the audience would be wondering what the heck is there to fear? I seem to recall the description of the Balrog as hulking and huge in the book.

As far as whether or not it could cross the bridge, the book clearly states it had wings. Whether it could fly or not, I don't know. Maybe it's like a penguin or a chicken's wings. Obviously Gandalf would not have stood against it unless there was a need to. ("Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf") If you mean the weight, the dwarves built their bridges to withstand great weight, I'm sure.

After the battle at Balin's Tomb, Gandalf had to rest "even if all the orcs of Moria were upon us".

But it's possible that there was a Greater Power again at work. If Gandalf remained his grey old self, I fear the War of the Ring would have gone much worse.

Um...I beg to differ, if you are referring to the movie.

http://www.quintessentialwebsites.co...ting_moria.jpg

Via some references in the Silmarillion, it stands to reason that the Balrog is big, but not huge. How else could they be slain. Ecthelion, in Gondolin, supposedly slew a Balrog (Gothmog, that is) with the pointy tip of his helm. If Balrogs are so big, wouldn't that spike have hit his thigh or ankle? Not a very vital spot. How could a man-size person slay any Balrog with a normal sized weapon if it was two stories tall. I always assumed that the Moria Balrog was roughly three times the size of Gandalf, making him freakishly huge, but not so freakishly huge that a sword couldn't reach his "chest". If he were this big, he could probably cross even a narrow bridge, since even a clumsy man can cross a wide balancing beam if his life depended on it.

That's just as big as the movie Balrog is! The book describes it as drawing to a great height (I read the passage after responding to this post earlier), but it was not so tall that Gandalf could not deliver a blow to his chest in The Two Towers. (I refer to the movie here, chiefly because I really liked it, and want to defend the images expressed therein)

In the movie, the only way that Gandalf could strike the Balrog in the chest was because he was balancing on him as they were falling. If the two were standing on the ground, movie-Gandalf would have been to the Balrog as a duck is to a man.

ie, very small, too small to get Glamdring anywhere near the Balrog's chest.

Couldn't find the picture, but at the peak of Zirak Zigal, Gandalf thrust Glamdring into the Balrog's chest. This is where I was referring to the height issue.

We have the "statistics" for the Balrogs in the First Age, but what if they "shrunk" just as all the other heros shrunk? Think about it. As the Ages went on, all the heroes became comparatively weaker. Elrond wasn't as strong as Fëanor, and Aragorn probably wasn't as strong as Tuor or Turin. What if the same principle could be applied to Balrogs or other creatures of darkness? If they waned in power (and in size) as the ages went on, it would be a lot easier for Gandalf, being a Maia, albeit a "hooded" Maia, to slay or defeat a Balrog in the Third Age, than it was for, say, Glorfindel to defeat that Balrog in the First Age.

Good theory. (Short post - mine, that is)

But were the Ainur really 'of the world' as the Children of Iluvatar were? Perhaps the diminishing of the world had no effect on Balrogs, other than an opportunity for easier prey.

A view that has launched a thousand threads. :D

I beg to differ. If the Balrog was twice the size of a man it would have at least a slight problem crossing because the bridge was only made for one dwarf to be able to cross it at a time...

So I understand!

Maybe Balrogs are extra coordinated. No, I know what! It used its wings to steady itself! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

in regards to that posted movie pic- yes that 'exit' certainly seems big enough to let exit the balrog.

but if you recall, the little stairway right before the exit (where aragorn lingers to look until orcs start shooting arrows) was not large at all. not even a troll would be able to fit through.

True...
 

Yes, that's true, but that could just be the "mortal" way for the Fellowship to take...it's all we saw. Perhaps the Balrog flew out another exit! :D :D

Yeah that's true too, but no matter how you slice it, the roggy in the movie was way too slow. To me it looked like they could've just outrun him.

With all that said, I think it was executed perfectly for film. Wouldn't change a thing!

It is said in book that Balrog was just a bit higher than a human,so he could have passed the bridge.In film they made him too big.Echtelion of Gondolin slayed Gothmog,the greatest of all Balrogs.How could he slayed him if ge was that big?So,my opinion is that Gandalf definetly made a good choice.