rate bravest moment. . .
 

I was wondering what you think the bravest act of any tolkien character is? I personally think it's when Beren gets the Silmaril...

[ October 26, 2003: Message edited by: Amarthol ]

[ October 26, 2003: Message edited by: Amarthol ]

I think you've got it, Amarthol. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Beren did have a little help though. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

We talking the trilogy or the histories? Because there are a lot of them to be sure. For Sam to attack Shelob, for instance. But I think one of the most dangerous yet brave things was for Gandalf to infiltrate Dol Goldur! Man, just think about that!

When Beregond saved Faramir. Not a big deed, but it is quite moving.

And when Faramir led the charge on Osgiliath, or towards a dark army, or something along those lines. Well, he did something... and it was brave.

[ October 31, 2003: Message edited by: Meela ]

I always thought Aragorn's defense of Frodo from the Ringwraiths on Weathertop was especially brave.

I would rate Túrin killing Glaurung quite high. That would be so incredible frightening!!

I can't really decide. What about Beren going through that valley? And Húrin slaying those trolls and being captured, and never giving in though his family were cursed? I think Húrin might clinch it for me, although all of Túrin's deeds have moved me greatly. It is in my opinion the most emotional story by Tolkien.

Impossible to say, but if I had to pick one, I'd pick Aragorn looking into the Palantir. It wasn't the same kind of bodily danger that the others cited experienced, that's true, but if he failed and let Sauron see into his mind, Middle Earth was finished. There's a pressure situation for you!

Too true,. Although Aragorn didn't seem particularly worried. As I recall, he was ever trying to argue with Gandalf, so he could look into it.

I am going to choose a comparatively low key one. That of Frodo actually deciding to leave the fellowship. Imagine it, setting out on your own into a dangerous land, knowing that you are going to the most dangerous place in that land. And moreover, that you lack even the most basic skills in self defence.
That’s really tough. I think to be really brave you have to be really scared first. Bravery is in overcoming that fear. Frodo had more to be afraid of at that point than nearly anyone.

But if you include the histories then I think that Beren and Luthien are pretty near the top.

And perhaps he didn’t know much about the risk but I always thought that Fatty Bolger impersonating Frodo was pretty brave, as was his escape from the Black Riders.

I'd say Gollum really telling Sauron a lie about the whereabouts of the Shire was really brave,could you do it?I'm sure I wouldn't!

I think that all of the hobbits were blimmin brave. They've never really known adventure or proper danger, and suddenly they're being hunted by terrifying black riders and they've got no proper survival or self-defence skills. And then Frodo's descision to carry on alone with such a terrible burden, and Sam following him into one of the most terrible places in Middle Earth. Then there's Merry, going off to fight with Rohan, and Pippin fighting at the Black Gate. They all just keep going and don't let fear get to them, and do things that hobbits would never be expected to do. So all in all, the hobbits were made of very 'stern stuff'indeed!

Too right, I'd have been terrified!

When I read that question, of course the first things I thought of were dragons, monsters, Eowyn and the Witchking, etc. However, I believe that the most brave (and also most heart-wrenching) action was Sam leaving Frodo and making the decision to carry on the quest by himself.

Cognito ego sum...doesn't that mean 'think I am' (literally)? Because 'ego sum' is I am...

Anyway...
Hmm, I hadn't really thought about the Hobbits. But now you mention it...wow, I couldn't have done any of the stuff they did.

It's 'Cogito ergo sum' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

As for the bravest moment. Beren and Luthien springs to mind. I mean, to enter Angband (surrounded by a barren, featureless desert) and face the supreme Dark Lord himself takes a lot of guts. And remember that Morgoth himself was so terrifying that only the bravest could look him in the eyes and not fall into a dark pit of fear and despair.

Gandalf's infiltration was certainly brave but not on the same level:

1. Sauron was weaker than Morgoth

2. Gandalf was a Maia and Sauron too, so there was at least a semblence of equality. Beren was a Human and Luthien was half elf, half Maia while Morgoth was the most powerful being in Middleearth and used to be the most powerful being save Eru Himself!

3. Dol Guldur was a pleasant holiday resort compared to Angband.

When I read the question, I thought of the hobbits. First of all, Frodo saying that he would take the ring to Mordor. He didn't even know for sure anyone else would be going with him. Then when he left the Fellowship to go on his own. That showed a lot of courage, and loyalty, too. He didn't want harm to come to his friends. And Sam's following Frodo. And Sam's leaving Frodo to take the ring. In the movie, Pippin and Merry distracting the orcs so Frodo could leave was really brave, too. Well, there are many brave acts, but I'd have to say Frodo did some of the bravest.

And Manwe, of course.

I think I've come up with the ultimate moment of bravery: Sam entering Minas Morgul to find Frodo. Think about it! Orcs all over the place! That would be like entering a dark castle which you KNOW is filled with terrible enemy soldier monsters to find one friend...when you don't even have to! He already had the Ring, after all. Whew, I shudder to think of it. Would YOU do that?

Oh, yes, that is one of the bravest!! Definitely! I certainly hope I could do as much for a friend.
Arwen

Well, just about all of the "good guys" in Tolkien's works have perfomed some pretty brave acts. I must certainly agree with what Lindril said about Sam, and the comments about Beren and Luthien. I think just about everything Beren and Luthien did was brave. I mean, escaping from Hirilorn to venture out into the unknown after Beren was pretty brave of Luthien, and standing before Thingol (and actually defying him!) would take a lot of courage, too. And that was just the beginning...

I think it was when Estel went on the Paths of the Dead (which, BTW, I can't wait to see in the movie!!). My reason is this: He knew that only the true king at the right time could pass though. Was now the time? Would he actally come out alive? I'm sure he wondered things like that! It was so terrifying that even Gimli (The brave dwarf! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) was too scared to go! To me, that's the most brave act.

I think the bravest act in all of Tolkien's books is when Samwise decides not to kill himself and instead takes the Ring from his fallen master to continue the quest alone.

And in case you skimmed over that part, allow me to quote:

...It would not be worth while to leave his master for [revenge]. It would not bring him back. Nothing would. They had better both be dead together. And that too would be a lonely journey.

He looked on the bright point of the sword. He thought of the places behind where there was a black brink and an empty fall into nothingness. There was no escape that way. That was to do nothing, not even to grieve. That was not what he had set out to do...


The choice to deny death, particularly a death self-inflicted, is, to me, brave beyond all the Berens and Eowyns and endless Estels the world can count.

Definitely Fingolfin challenging Morgoth.

""Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking Orome himself was come; for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came."(The Silmarillion) That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came clean and clear into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin name Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. "Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a storm cloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it like a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, and it glittered like ice, cold and gray and deadly."

I agree with everything everyone is saying. But I do have to say that the bravest moment was when Sam decided to leave Frodo all alone after defeating Shelob, and to try to finish the quest all by himself. I tend to symphonize with the hobbits though just because they were the ones that were supposed to be just like us, and I could never imagine myself doing anything like what they did (in their fictional world, in their fictional book, I know). But I do additionally think that the elves from the Sil were very brave too. Facing Morgoth! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Gosh that is scary! You would most definitely be the bravest of the brave to do that.

Bilbo entering Smaug's layer.

I think the bravest moment in LOTR is when Frodo volunteers to take the Ring to Mount Doom. I mean he risked his life to save the world. That is pretty brave if you ask me.

See, I disagree with that because Frodo really didn't know what he was getting himself into at that point. He could have had no concept of the sheer amount of horror which would befall and follow him on the quest.

I'm stickin' with Sam- it would have been so easy to say "Okay, that's it, this isn't my quest, my best friend is dead, I'm heading home", instead of heading into "certain death". (In quotations because he obviously didn't die... but he couldn't have known that.

And to clear up the waffle thing. I know the phrase is "cognito ergo sum", "I think therefore I am". It's a joke. An Eggo is a brand of WAFFLE! Ha! Ha! Ha..... okay so I'm the only one laughing.

[ November 05, 2003: Message edited by: Lindril Arvilya ]

Okay, okay, Lindril, Gorwingel, and Gorlim, go and change my mind. Not too hard, considering it's *Sam* you're talking about! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And you've brought me to the realization that Sam's choice to go on really is the bravest: is just is. I agree with everything you've said, and so on. So now I'm more decided on the bravest moment, since in my earlier post there was a little bit of going back and forth, not really sure. Now I have chosen my absolute bravest moment opinion. Thanks for that, guys.

I believe the bravest moment was when Eowyn laughed at the Witch King and said,"No living man am I. You look upon a woman", then she drove her sword into his head. She faught like a man, but has the heart of a woman. She is fair, cold and is like steel to those who look upon her.

I think the bravest moment is when Glorfindel fights with Balrog to help Tuor and others to escape from Gondolin and in the end they both die.