The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - Why did Olorin seem the least of the Istari?

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Why did Olorin seem the least of the Istari?

I think the Valar on purpose made him seem the least of the five (smaller,and leaning on a staff) because they knew he was the wisest and most trustworthy.Sauron would obviously think the Valar would make the wisest the head of the order,so he thought of Saruman as the greatest Istar and concentrated on him.Gandalf would probably be the last he'd go after wich gave him the chance of doing the greatest part of the mission of the Istari,working behind the sceens at Saurons fall.It probably wasnt until he returned as Gandalf the White that he really got Saurons attention. Unfortunately for Sauron,Gandalfs plans were nearly realised then.

Didnt they all have staffs?

Well, if I'm understanding your post (Forgive me if I am not) you're generally saying that perhaps the Valar, contrary to what Sauron would think, sent the Istari in an order that did not correspond to their power. So this way, Saruman coming first, Sauron would assume he was strongest, etc etc. Well, it's kind of a given that they're all strong. But it Saruman was strongest, then doesn't that mean that he'd be likely to be the hardest one to corrupt as well? To me, it seems natural that if there was a strongest Istar, it'd have the strongest will to do good. So if Sauron did fall for this ruse of the Valar, and assume Saruman the strongest, you think he'd just be undaunted by this? Wasn't there a still fairly strong Istari that would have a little less tenor in the desire to do good? In a way, it seems to me that he's almost lucky he picked Saruman because he seemed pretty easily corrupted. As for Olorin and the others, (excluding Gandalf) we'll never know what they'd have done if Sauron had chosen them, I suppose.

By the way, I think they did all have staffs...

Thanks, nice post, by the way.

when gandalf says something like: i am going to see the head of my order, he is both wise and... something like that, doesnt he talk as if saruman was stronger? also, saruman was able to imprison him as gandalf the grey. i think this shows that saruman was actually strongest.
until gandalf came back as gandalf the white of course. on a side note- did they still call him mithrandir when he was gandalf thw white? it wouldnt make sense, seeing as he was no longer grey.

Saruman was strong, but do you really think that if Sauron had decided to pick Gandalf as his...Istari cohort that Gandalf would have been corrupted and turned evil? To me, it seemed like Gandalf could never really do that.

And that's a good question about Mithrandir, I don't know.

The Powers of the Istari, Gandalf and Saruman, a few off-topic posts here, and this post, and this thread. Primarily I mean to be directing you to posts I've made about Gandalf, since I nearly always agree with me. Gandalf is a favorite topic of mine.

Yes,they did all have staffs. But wouldn't it turn Sauron away from Gandalf if he thought of Saruman as the strongest and had corrupted him?He probably wouldn't really care about the others if the,in his eyes wisest and most powerful,had already been corrupted,wich gave Gandalf the chance to do his work without being observed all the time.Nevertheless,when Sauron noticed Gandalf had become the white and threw Saruman out of the order,he did probably pay attention to him.

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I think the Valar on purpose made him seem the least of the five (smaller,and leaning on a staff) because they knew he was the wisest and most trustworthy.

I disagree. Olorin's appearance as Gandalf made sense in that it coordinated with his personality. He was humble and underestimated himself. The appearance was only fitting.

Gandalf was by no means the least of the istari. I remember reading in UT that when the vala said he would be the last of the original istari (3), Manwe's wife said third but not last, and also in of Istari in UT, it is said that Cirdan, seeing Gandalf's purpose and that his power was greatest (as well as Celeborn and Galadriel seeing), gave him the ring and wanted him to be the head of the council. I think that he was always the most powerful and most true to his purpose. Also, he did not desire to leave Valinor, and so stayed longest. There wzs no attempt at concealing or tricking Sauron, but this happened as a result of Gandalf's desire to remain in Valinor. Also, Sauron did not "go after" sauremon, but ensnared him (as well as denethor) when they looked into the palantiri.

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As for Olorin and the others, (excluding Gandalf) we'll never know what they'd have done if Sauron had chosen them, I suppose.

To clarify, as there seems to have been some puzzlement, Gandalf is Olorin. Olorin was simply his Valarin name.

And Welcome to the Downs, Belethfacwen. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Sophia

And if you would rather see the information that Son of Fire repeated presented in a comprehensible, professional manner, with actual quotes, you can click the links I provided.

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Olorin was simply his Valarin name.

Olórin was not a Vala. Maybe you meant Valinorian?

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As for Olorin and the others, (excluding Gandalf) we'll never know what they'd have done if Sauron had chosen them, I suppose.

Gandalf's test was far more severe than Saruman's, having the One Ring within his grasp and offered to him.

[ April 22, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

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Olórin was not a Vala. Maybe you meant Valinorian?

Valarin is a language, not an adjective that refers to the Valar in particular. It was certainly spoken by the Maiar (of which Olórin was one) as well. I was mistaken in that the name Olórin is rooted in Quenya, not Valarin. I simply meant (though I should certainly have phrased it differently) that "Olórin" is the name used in Silm for the person known in LoTR (primarily) as Gandalf.

[ April 22, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

...Or, Sauron possibly didn't know that Gandalf was Olorin, though I kind of doubt this.

True, Olorin was the wisest of Maiar, but he wasn't the most powerful. Curunir (Saruman) was more powerful than he, and he came to Middle-earth first, so he was appointed head of the White Council. Not to mention that Gandalf keeps travelling from place to place (hence the name Grey Pilgrim), and, as Legolas said, Olorin was humble, I wouldn't say underestimated himself, but was cautious or wary of himself, because he knows his powers and limitations.

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Sauron possibly didn't know that Gandalf was Olorin, though I kind of doubt this.

I don't. I think that it is quite possible that Sauron had no inkling that the Istari were Maia, at least until Gandalf came back as the White.

Ummm,to start: Actually Mithrandir is Olórin's name in Elvish(Sindarin)

On Gandalf He seems to be the least because he is not boastful of himself and serves others. As was his instructions of the Valar. Tolkien was a Christian, remember that in the Bible Jesus said those that are exhaulted shall be abased and the humble shall be exhaulted.

IMHO if you wanna be at the top you gotta start at the bottom [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

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The Silmarillion: The Valaquenta~ Of the Maiar pg.22~ Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lorien,but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience. Olórin though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was a friend to all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

This is also a very interesting statement made by the Professor himself in the Silmarillion as well.

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The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age pg.361 In the likeness of Men they appeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand. Long they had journeyed far and wide among Elves and Men, and held converse also with beasts and with birds; and the people of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves call Mithrandir and Curunír, but the Men in the North named them Gandalf and Saruman. Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast, and the other Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales. ...
Mithrandir was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land lasting abode; but Curunír journeyed into the East, and when he returned he dwelt at Orthanc in the Ring of Isengard, which the Númenóreans made in the days of their power.
Ever most vigilant was Mithrandir, and he it was that most doubted the darkness of Mirkwood, for though many deemed that it was wrought by the Ringwraiths, he feared that it was indeed the first shadow of Sauron returning; and he went to Dol Goldur, and the Sorcerer fled from him, and there was a watchful peace for a long while. But at length the Shadow returned and it's power increased; and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír. And Curunír(that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old. Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons.

Also there is proof that Curunír is not the wisest, he was sort of foolish here; actually, he knew what he was doing ( in that way he was wise, for evil and selfish purposes only) but it was not the righteous kind of wisdom.

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The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and The Third Age pg. 361 'Yet the One was lost,' said Mithrandir, 'and while it still lies hid, we can master the Enemy, if we gather our strenght and tarry not too long.' Then the White Council was summoned; and Mithrandir urged them to swift deeds, but Curunír spoke against him, and counselled them to wait yet and to watch. 'For I believe not,' said he, 'that the one will ever be found again in Middle-earth. Into Aunduin it fell, and long ago, I deem, it was rolled to the Sea. There it shall lie until the end, when all this world is broken and the deeps are removed.' Therefore naught was done at that time, htough Elronds heart misgave him, and he said to Mithrandir: 'Nonetheless I forebode that the One will yet be found, and then war will rise again, and in that war this Age will be ended. Indeed in a second darkness it will wnd, unless some strange chance deliver us that my eyes cannot see.'

The only reason Saruman was the Head of the Council is because he knew the most about Sauron. And they wanted to use his knowledge to defeat him. Sadly all this knowledge was much to his demise and his will bent to evil. The only reason Gandalf wasn't the head is because he wanted to be loyal to his first duty and that was to lead the Children of Ilúvatar in the righteous direction. He could have been Gandalf the White first, but refused it. And being wise he didn't bite off more than he could chew, so to speak.

In actuality Gandalf is not the least of the Istari. He is the highest of the Istari.

I hope this helps!!! ~(~<~> Yavanna

[ April 27, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]

Forgot to add this. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

On the strength of the Maiar. They are all strong. I would venture to say equally strong, ahh wait, ... but in different areas!

Yes Saruman kept Gandalf prisoner, but Gandalf had th power to deal with a Balrog.... I think Gandalf let Saruman beat him, because he had Narya, one of the Rings of Power and if he would have used it to over come him Sauron would know of one of the Elven rings.
Wich brings me to my second point.

Sauron didn't exactly have the power to 'choose' his victim so to speak. Saruman had been messing with Saurons own dealings; he delved to deeply into his, and he was easily and had already been ensnared by the Shadow. He wanted the Ring for himself, so Sauron thought that if Saruman got hold of the ring first he would just take it from him. In my previous post Gandalf had a show down with Sauron and he fled before him. Thats saying something!!

As for Sauron not knowing that the Istari were Maiar, I think he knew very well and thats why he used Saruman to help him build his army, after all Sauron is a Maiar too. He served Aulë, remember?

Just another nugget of joy [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] lol
~(~<~> Yavanna

Sauron possibly new that the Istari were Maiar, but he probably didn't know their true names, save, maybe, Saruman. Yes, they all had their different strengths. For Gandalf/Olorin it is Wisdom, for Radagast it is the creatures of the earth, etc.

Sauron used anyone who had a Palantir to his uses, there just happened to be one in Orthanc and Saruman used it, as there was one in the Tower of Ecthelion and Denethor used it. Sauron used both to control the actions of these two great beings. And, isn't it strange how, seemingly, the Maiar that were under Aule's rule fell to the dark side?

Umm... Yavanna? Obloquy's links work fine?

I think we're all being a little snappy, perhaps politeness on all sides would help?

Sophia

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To clarify, as there seems to have been some puzzlement, Gandalf is Olorin. Olorin was simply his Valarin name.

Ugh, I can't believe I made that mistake. Thanks for pointing it out, though. But ergh, I'm so embarassed, heh. And I agree with you, perhaps everyone should just not be quite so snappy. And thanks for the welcome, I appreciate it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

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I for one know exactly what I am talking about.

Eh...

How about showing us?

[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Yav, no offense meant, but it doesn't help your case to have repeated your entire statement twice in one post.

Edit: Much better [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ April 26, 2003: Message edited by: The X Phial ]

Hi Folks.

This is your friendly neighbourhood Mod from Rohan reminding everyone here in Books that while we might be dead here at the Downs, we don't lack courtesy and civility. Please make an effort to respect each other and aim for exemplary posts.

Thanks.

Bethberry

The greatest don't always lead. And perhaps Gandalf's proclivity for wandering about made him a lesser candidate for leadership of the White Counsel since at times he may not be reachable. And maybe Gandalf himself would not want the leadership position since it might require him to settle in one place. A lot of "perhaps and maybe" but that's what this forum is for. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

By the way...nice to see some of the Barrow vets haven't lost the acid in their tongues <sigh>. Arrogance or frustration....neither is reason enough for incivility.

[ April 27, 2003: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

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I don't. I think that it is quite possible that Sauron had no inkling that the Istari were Maia, at least until Gandalf came back as the White.

I disagree. When Saruman used the Palantir he was likely read by Sauron. I would be surprised if he DID'T know that Saruman at least was an ancient spirit. Most of Saruman's will to resist Sauron by that point was currupted by his own desire for the ring.