The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php)

- The Books (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9)

- - Míriel's death (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2491)

If the elves were inmortal, why then did Miriel had to die.

Quote:

But in the bearing of her son Míriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labours of living.

Why couldn't she find healing in Aman.

Quote:

'Surely there is healing in Aman? Here all weariness can find rest.' But when Míriel languished still, Finwë sought the counsel of Manwë, and Manwë delivered her to the care of Irmo in Lórien. At their parting (for a little while as he thought) Finwë was sad, for it seemed an unhappy chance that the mother should depart and miss the beginning at least of the childhood days of her son.
She went then to the gardens of Lórien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos. The maidens of Estë tended the body of Míriel, and it remained unwithered; but she did not return.

Was this made because of the importance of Feanor in the Silmarillion or it was a fault or singularity regarding the supposedly inmortality of elves.

I think she wanted to die. Doesn't it say somewhere (quick! someone pull out a quote, 'cause I'm too lazy!) that Elves can die from grief, and the like, that they can basically will themselves to die if they want it so badly? And I think that Miriel's inability to find healing in Aman is just the first chain in the sequence of events that leads to the Silmarils, the kin-slaying, the wars, etc etc etc, ad nauseum. The sad story has to start somewhere. And so it starts with an Elf that is too weary to live.

I think she died because she poured too much of herself into feanor and it left her no life for herself.

Quote:

Never again shall I bear a child; for strength that would have nurished the life of many has gone forth into Feanor.

Miriel did not 'have to die' she chose for her fea [spirit] to leave her body. And after repeated urging from the Valar [ and Finwe] refused to return or even consider returning. What is published in the Silmarillion is but a small part of the story. CRRT left out much concering this. an entire chapter and appendix actually. All of the related stories can be found in morgoth's ring [HoME vol. 10]

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

From Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion

Quote:

But Ulmo answered her saying: 'Nay! Though I do not condemn, yet still I will judge. Herein I perceive not only the direct will of Eru, but fault in his creatures. Not guilt, yet a failing from the highest which is the Hope of which the King hath spoken. And I doubt not that the taking of the higher road, an ascent that though hard was not impossible, was part of that purpose of immediate good of which Niënna speaketh. For the fëa of Míriel may have departed by necessity, but it departed in the will of not to return. Therein was her fault, for this will was not under compulsion irresistible; it was a failure in hope by the fëa, acceptance of the weariness and weakness of the body, as a thing beyond healing, and which therefore was not healed. But this resolve entailed not only abandoning her own life, but also the desertion fo her spouse, and the marring of his. The justification which she urged is insufficient; for by the gift of a child however great, nor indeed by the gift of many children, the union of marriage is not ended, nor indeed, having further purpose. For one thing, Fëanáro will be deprived of the mother's part in his nurture. Moreover, if she would return she need bear no more, unless by the renewal of rebirth her weariness were healed.
'Thus Finwë was aggrieved and claimed justice. But when he called her and she did not return, in only a few years he fell into despair. Herein lay his fault, and failing in Hope. But also he founded his claim mainly upon his desire for children, considering his own self and his loss more than the griefs that had befallen his wife: that was a failing in full love.
'The fëar or the Eldar, as Niënna hath said, cannot be broken or forced, and the motion of their will cannot therefore be predicted with certainity. Yet it seemeth to me that there was hope still that after repose in Mandos the fëa of Míriel should return to itself to its nature, which is to desire to inhabit a body. This strange event should issue, rather than in dissolving their union, in the use by Finwë of the patience of full love, and the learning of Hope; and in the return of Míriel, wider in mind, and renewed in the body. Thus together they might forter their great son with joined love, and his right nurture be assured. But the fëa of Míriel hath not been left in peace, and by importuning its will hath been hardened; and in that resolve it must remain without change while Arda lasteth, if the Statue is declared. Thus the impatience of Finwë will close the door of life upon the fëa of his spouse. This is the greater fault. For it is more unnatural that one of the Eldar should remain for ever as fëa without body than that one should remain alive wedded but bereaved. A trial was imposed upon Finwë (not by Míriel only), and he hath asked for justice, and relief.'

In the end, if Finwë had been more patient, Míriel could have returned as she should have and together, they could have raised her son as it should have been.

It is strange, who so much happened because of the two abnormalities that happened with Finwe and his family. First of all, his wife "dies", in Aman, and then he takes a second wife which brings the trouble amongst the kins of Feanor and Fingolfin/Finarfin. If these strange events had not taken place, then the Silmarillion would probably not have been.

I believe that what Miriel did is called discorporation. It's what the Martians do in Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land".

What I want to know is, did the part of Miriel's life force that she lost through bearing her great child pass through Feanor's hands into the Silmarils? Is that Miriel's better half shining up there in the sky of Middle Earth?

I know the light is that of the trees (I don't know if that was changed in Morgoth's Ring, I don't have it yet. It must have been if the Trees disappeared.) My theory so far: the light of the trees was caught in the life of the trees, supported by their life; the light in the Silmarils was caught in a life that was originally part of Miriel's Fea and was then formed into the Silmarils along with whatever other materials Feanor used to make the jewels. Life is the ether, light is a wave in the ether. That's an old theory of light.

Quote:

My theory so far: the light of the trees was caught in the life of the trees, supported by their life; the light in the Silmarils was caught in a life that was originally part of Miriel's Fea and was then formed into the Silmarils along with whatever other materials Feanor used to make the jewels.

I don't agree with this. The fea of an elf is the spirit part of him if you will. When a child is born, it could happen that a part of the parents fea is gone to their child, but the fea of the children is different from that of the parents.

Quote:

Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the eager heart of Fëanor; and Melkor laughed in his secrecy, for to that mark his lies had been addressed, hating Fëanor above all, and lusting ever for the Silmarils. But these he was not suffered to approach; for though at great feasts Fëanor would wear them, blazing on his brow, at other times they were guarded close, locked in the deep chambers of his hoard in Tirion. For Fëanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.

In this quote, it is said that light of the silmarils came not from Fëanor, so it's not possible that they are a part of Míriel.

It's a highly believable possibility anyhow Nar [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. You had me thoroughly convinced.

Maybe Feanor turned out the way he did because he didn't have a Mommy [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Maedhros: I think the light mentioned comes from the two trees, since it was from their light that he made the sils. Feanor forgot that he owed his greatest craftmanship to another, and his pride took possesion of him.

miriel died because much of her energy went into the having of feanor. Read morgoth's ring. it talks much of this kind of stuff.
She wanted to die because her energy was nearly spent. In morgoth's ring it says that elves didnt have many children because much of their spirit and energy was put into the child and plus they only had children at times of peace, for the days of childhood for the elves were suppose to eb the happiest for botht he parents and children.

Elves can die only from a deadly wound or a broken heart. They can also give up their spirit freely, and it leaves to dwell in the Halls of Mandos until the end of the world.

Quote:

They can also give up their spirit freely, and it leaves to dwell in the Halls of Mandos until the end of the world.

This is usually a fault in the elf.
From Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion

Quote:

For the fëa of Míriel may have departed by necessity, but it departed in the will of not to return. Therein was her fault, for this will was not under compulsion irresistible; it was a failure in hope by the fëa, acceptance of the weariness and weakness of the body, as a thing beyond healing, and which therefore was not healed. But this resolve entailed not only abandoning her own life, but also the desertion fo her spouse, and the marring of his. The justification which she urged is insufficient; for by the gift of a child however great, nor indeed by the gift of many children, the union of marriage is not ended, nor indeed, having further purpose. For one thing, Fëanáro will be deprived of the mother's part in his nurture. Moreover, if she would return she need bear no more, unless by the renewal of rebirth her weariness were healed.

The elf that gave his body to live in Mandos with a good reason was Finwe which allowed his wife to return to her body.

Blessed be the Search Function. I was close to opening a new thread about Miriel's decision.

In the Later Quenta Silmarillion in Morgoth's Ring we read that by marrying Indis Finwe accepted the marring of Arda, and we may argue, that this action was the cause for many evils that followed.

But Miriel made a decision as well, maybe not in dying, but in refusing to ever return from Mandos, even after being asked twice. Though I would say that Miriel's pain was graver than Finwes discontent about being unmarried, didn't Miriel accept the marring, too? (as Maedhros' quote suggests)

Yet, Tolkien lets her say the famous: "But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after."

How do you see this?

If we are able to blame Finwe, shouldn't we be able to blame Miriel as well, at least to a little extend?
I think this would be a stronger statement than just "She made a fault in this matter".

I must admit, I always thought that Miriel was a bit of a misery - I mean she wouldn't even try. Such negativity is self fulfilling. I think Imperica speaks true though jesting. Feanor's mother chose to leave him - whatever the reason, that is about the worst thing that could happen to a child. Then he has to cope with the competition of less demanding half siblings. No wonder he demanded absolute loyalty from his sons and was generally uncompromising....

Sounds like a very bad case of post-natal depression to me. Poor lady.

But do elves get that? And in Valinor..wopuldn't there be healing? And however bad she felt it doesn't change how Feanor would have perceived it. It does seem she gave up her life very quickly after his birth.

I was reading the Narn i hin hurin today and Morwen was another gloomy one....

Oh, I *adore* Morwen. She's a bit like Bree in Desperate Housewives, in that I love her because she's my complete opposite...

Then again, we should remember that out of Indis came Earendil, about whom Mandos foredold:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laws and customs of the Eldar, HoME X

But I say unto you that the children of Indis shall also be great, and the Tale of Arda more glorious because of their coming. And from them shall spring things so fair that no tears shall dim their beauty; in whose being the Valar, and the Kindreds both of Elves and of Men that are to come shall all have part, and in whose deeds they shall rejoice. So that, long hence when all that here is, and seemeth yet fair and impregnable, shall nonetheless have faded and passed away, the Light of Aman shall not wholly cease among the free peoples of Arda until the End. When he that shall be called Earendil setteth foot upon the shores of Aman, ye shall remember my words. In that hour ye will not say that the Statute of Justice hath borne fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall come ye shall weigh in the balance, and they shall not seem too heavy compared with the rising of the light when Valinor groweth dim.

True, Indis like her great granddaughter, Idril, gets far less attention than she deserves. I guess nice happy, capable women don't make such good drama....