Saruman a copy-cat?
 

Do you think that Saruman copyed Gandalf?

I think that he did. After Gandalf showed an interest in the shire, Saruman started showing interest in the shire. Gandalf smoked pipeweed, Saruman smoked pipeweed.

Can anyone think of more examples?

Gandalf had a beard.... Saruman had a beard... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

I don't think Saruman copied Gandalf, because that is where the similarity stops. Saruman was the leader of the White Council and the most powerful of the Istari. He also knew more about the history of the Ring and Sauron than anybody else. Plus he had a fortress and orc army while Gandalf wandered around. Also, the reasons for the interest in the Shire were different. Gandalf wanted to protect it while Saruman wanted to exploit it.

It says in several places that Saruman was envious of Gandalf. He definately copies him with the pipe smoking thing.

All the hobbits in the Shire copies Gandalf too, cause they smoke pipe-weed :-)

I think Saruman was envious of Gandalf for several reasons, but it went the other way as well, I believe, Gandalf was envious of Saruman. How he enjoyed to break his staff!

Hmm. Feel free to flame me now! :-)

Saruman wasn't more powerful than Gandalf, he just disregarded the limitations imposed upon the Istari.

I agree, gandalf is the only wizard who acomplished his purpose (maybe radagast awell, im not sure)the hobbits smoked pipe-weed before gandalf that how he learned about it

lets not forget ...gandalf has hairy eyebrows...saruman haas hairy eyebrows!
Im joking...well not really(heehee) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

I agree with Obloquy , Aldagrim and Sarin. Though in my opinion Saruman wasn't more powerful than Gandalf... he was more outspoken and "appeared" more skilled. Gandalf was more analytical and rarely underestimated the enemy. He acknowledges his limits as well, the one reason why he refused to bear the Ring.
Perhaps it was his (Saruman's) knowledge of the Ring that made him believe he could control it.

Each istari probably had his own forte, e.g. Radagast and his skill with animals. But to say that one was “more powerful” than the other, I must differ. The reason why Gandalf did not become the leader of the White Council was because he refused. Galadriel had wanted Gandalf to head the Council (perhaps through foresight?), but he refused because he did not want to ally himself to anyone.

*** I can’t give the quote, but this was in UT I believe, and some other book entries I can’t recall and am too lazy to get off the shelf…

Saruman copy Gandalf? Perhaps sub-consciously he may have. He scorned the practice of smoking pipeweed, I believe… but secretly he tried it. Regarding the Shire… Saruman grew suspicious of Gandalf’s interest in the Shire and his dealing with the hobbits.

I don't want to argue but... in one thing Gandalf copied Saruman! Saruman was in the beginning called 'White', and Gandalf- 'Grey'... and what was Gandalf called after he "died" in Moria?...

I believe the title "White" was given to the head of the Istari, and not just a personal thing

Saruman thought Gandalf was on a uncompletable mission that would utterly kill him and make his entire life meaningless(Would YOU want to copy someone you thought this about)

Gandalf thought Saruman to have Fallen under the shadow of Evil and have given up Wisdom for a hopeless chance for Power that would utterly end kill him and make his life meaningless(would YOU want to copy someone you thought this about)

No one copied anyone here they lived their own lives and took part in what they enjoyed as an individual (smoking pipeweed) - THINK about it does any one call you a capy cat for Posting on the boards or reading The Lord of The Rings.

...Saruman isn't "copying" he is "envious" of Gandalf-You see Gandalf in he first place was supposed to be on top of the White Council-even Galadriel thought so-but Gandalf didn't want to be on top so he ended up being second-and Saruman the first...

Ofcourse good always prevail over evil-nd Gandalf was always on the side of good-you figure it out-Saruman's lust for power was also described in the Silmarillion...

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Arie ]

I agree...it was envy
It was envy, in my opinion, that drove him to become evil. Envy turned into anger...which turned into hate...which drove him to become power hungry...
(Not that Im pointing any fingers at Gandalf)

Yeah, I mean, just because they looked a little similar didn't mean anything. I mean, they are both wizards, so even if they have a few similar features such as eyebrows or something, it doesn't mean that either one is a copy cat. I agree with the people who said that it was envy, not copying.

Okay, so maybe you guys haven't read UT on the Istari, but JRRT himself said that Sauremon, knowing that Gandalf was the most powerful, desired to copy him in both the Shire, pipeweed, and many other things. I just read it, and have a photographic memory, so i remembered, but take a look.

Since some of you seem unclear on this, Hobbits invented pipeweed. This is very clearly stated. Gandalf was the only one of The Wise to ever take an interest in hobbits. He came to smoke pipeweed through his asociation with the hobbits. Sauremon even made fun of Gandalf for taking an interest in the hobbits and his "love of the halflings leaf".
It was when Sauremon started realizing he had made a mistake in overlooking the halflings that he begain to take an interest in pipeweed himself. Yes, I agree that Sauremon was very much envious of Gandalf for many things, the love of many elves and men not the least.

Yes and no. After Gandalf smoked pipeweed it seems that Saruman did order shipments of the Longbottom leaf, so he was copying there.
But I don't think he copied Gandalf about the Shire. When evil things came back into the world, and things begain to tip Saruman off, he guessed why Gandalf might be spend- ing so much time in the Shire. He knew if he (Saruman) knew where the Ring was, he'd be frequenting that spot as well. So Saruman began to pay attention to the Shire, sure that the Ring he wanted lay there. So he wasn't really copying Gandalf there, he only took interest in the Shire because of the Ring. Gandalf was interested in the hobbits, but Saruman would never have been paying attention (even if Gandalf was) to the Shire if there was no Ring there. Guilty on one count, not guilty on the other. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

I think he copyed off Sauron more than anyone else!

Exactly! Saruman grew power-hungry and built his replica of Barad-dur and Sauron's army. Even if it "was just a child's plaything or an ignorant slave's imitation" (paraphrasing) it was still very similar. Saruman also wished to destroy the race of man sort of like Sauron (I think).

he also copied morgoth- morgoth made orcs, saruman made (better) orcs.
on the gandalf/saruman one... gandalf was an istar, saruman was an istar.

Saruman didn't really copy Gandalf except for the pipe thing, and the Shire. He was more jealous of him, and it explains this quite well in the book of 'Unfinished Tales'. It's quite interesting really, Saruman keeps his pipeweed secret from gandalf because he is embarrased, and visited the Shire secretly, so that people at first thought he was Gandalf but then Gandalf found out. Silly Saruman!

Yeah, Saruman was DEFINITELY a copycat. Sauron and Gandalf were the main people that he copied, because they were probably the only ones that he thought were worthy of being copied. Saruman couldn't even think of an original way to die - the whole cloud of smoke thing had already been done (in much more spectacular fashion) by Sauron. We might as well just call Saruman "Little S" and Sauron "Big S".

Saruman is a morally weak character. He's the kind of guy that is far too worried about what others are doing, constantly looking around and saying "Damn, that's good, I'm going to do that!" or "Yess.... Orcs.... BWA HA HA HAA!!" If he'd just stuck with what he already knew, I'm sure he would have fared much better. That voice power stuff is mui impressive. Did Jedi Knights copy him??

Yes,he was in fact a bit pathetic in his copying of others.I honestly can't really think of a reason why he was ever accounted head of the Istari and the greatest of the five.

because he was the most powerful and wise. remember he beat gandalf in a fight? he was also extremely wise and learned in lore, unfortunately, by studying too deeply he turned evil.

Gandalf allways was the greatest of the Istari.

Maybe Saruman was curious as to why Gandalf showed an interest in the Shire? And also Great minds think alike. A phrase I usually don't agree with, in this case, I may make an exception...

Gandalf was the third istar ot be chosen (of the original three), after sarumon and allatar, but it was recorded that Manwe's wife said third, but not last, and Cirdan, upon Gandalf's entry into ME, gave him Narya, seeing that he was the most powerful, also Celeborn and Galadriel wanted him to be the head of the white council, but he refused, not wanting dominion, and this also happened, if I am not mistaken, when it was desired to be the head of the istari. As for being "beaten" by sarumon in orthanc, he was detained, but wasn't he able to get out, and his staff was not taken. He was stabbed in the back in truth and trust.

Some of you are so ignorant, dammit!! I'm not easily annoyed, but some things just tick me off. Please READ the thread before you start posting wildly!!

It's a bit more complicated that that I'd say! And that's a describing word of Saruman as well: Complicated. You can't just state that "he's a copycat" or he's this or he's that; he had his reasons and goals as to all he did. I'm not even certain that you can call him genuinely Evil - the only thing I do know is that he was raving mad in the end!

And it's Saruman, not Saurumon or Sauron-man or Sauraman or whatever. Whew you do annoy me! Please show this character a little bit more respect as he's one of the more complex ones of the lot!

Perhaps it is not that simple, but I believe Saruman is indeed one who IS always worried about what others are doing, viz. what Treebeard says about him. I do not have the quote to hand, but basically, he says that Saruman was always courteous and solicited information, but he never repaid in kind, i.e., he got all the info from Treebeard and the Ents that he could, but he never gave anything of himself or his mind to the Ents. Thus, he was closed off, cut off from a true relationship with them. In the same vein, he seemed to be trying to use Sauron in this way, but little reckoning how difficult it would end up being. This character trait proved to be his undoing. He focused so hard on the attainment of power through his alignment with Sauron, that he forgot the rest of the world, and most importantly, the Ents, which were his undoing! Saruman was wise and great, but very blind in some areas. As Frodo did, I pity him for his fall, and indeed I would have liked to see how he would have gone about finding his cure. Interesting discussion! But I didn't even say anything about Saruman copying anyone, I think! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And, wouldn't you know it! After posting this the first time, I think of another parallel: Sauron, too, was blind, in that he could not conceive of a plan to overthrow him that did not involve the use and wielding of his own weapon, the Ring. Both Sauron and Saruman underestimated hobbits, and both are brought to ruin by their direct influence. Perhaps the lesson here is the blindness of evil, not to say that Saruman was evil, but he was blinded by it, so he became indistinguishable from its wellspring to superficial eyes, and a dupe of evil to those who would look into such things. Evil had its final blows on him when he refused the offer of redemption by Gandalf and by the time Frodo let him go, he was carrying his personal doom around with him--i.e., Wormtongue. I hope I'm not too long-winded! Thanks for your indulgence!

Cheers,
Lyta

[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

I don't actually think Saruman copied Gandalf... Look at their clothes!!! If Saruman really copied Gandalf, he should've tried wearing a blue hat. It was just the Ring that interested Saruman in the Shire. If he WAS really interested he should've visited the Shire before learning that the Ring was there.....:-D

Ah, but he DID! He secretly imported pipeweed and took to smoking it, although he hid this fact from Gandalf. In fact, Saruman became interested in the Shire for the simple reason that Gandalf was interested in it. One of his great failings, really. He focused too much on keeping tabs on Gandalf instead of being wise and all! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

Sarin Elfarmour, you said:
According to JRRT himself, none of the wizards succeeded. I quote from Letter 156:
Radagast also failed because he became 'enamoured with birds'. Quote from Unfinished Tales, The Istari:
PS: a longer quote from Letter 156 can be read in the thread Did Gandalf die?