Where do dwarves go when they die?
 

Where do dwarves go when they die? do they go to valinor? or leave the circles of the world like men

They go to Mandos like everyone else. They don't leave the World, nor are they rebodied like the Elves. They remain in Mandos until the End when they will come out and help Aule remake the World.

Any later ruler named Durin, however,

(I LOVE Appendix A!)

These "strange beliefs" are somewhat elaborated in the Silmarillion:

(Sorry for the long quote, but it all seems so relevant!) So the Seven Fathers could be reincarnated (or at least, the Dwarves believed they could) but nobody else could.

Of course, it's hard to say who's right. Is there more information about this elsewhere?

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

Elsewhere the phraseology is that the later "incarnations" of Durin were so similar in form and appearance to the original that it was thought to be the genuine article (or at least was given the same name) but it was a descendant.

I personally rather doubt that the souls of departed Dwarves could be reincarnated. The case of Glorfindel is the only example that we (sort of) know about an incarnate dying and returning to Middle earth. Gandalf would be the other example, but he was not an incarnate so he does not qualify (and it was the special intervention of Eru).

The shroud of mystery that surrounds much of the information about the Dwarves was one that they wanted. Their secrecy was a trait of their race, so it's little wonder that there are different stories and conflicting interpretations especially about such mysterious things as life and death.

(At least that's how it fits in the story. The other reason is that Tolkien was not primarily concerned with the Dwarves and did not give them as much attention. Or at least that's how I, with my massive pro-Dwarven bias, view the situation. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Men don't leave the circles of the world. The Sil (I can't remember where) says Men go tro a seperatepart of the Halls of Mandos.

Here we see that even if they did spend any time in Mandos, which my personal feelings tend against, they do, at some stage, leave the circles of the world.

Additionally...
As for Dwarves. I tend towards Kuruharan's sceptical approach to potential reincarnation. The passage quoted above of Dwarves is indeed misleading...I believe it to be simply Tolkien working in a myth of a myth.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

Very sensible.

I (on my part) like Kuruharan's point about the uncertainty factor. Their belief in both reincarnation and thier right to go to the Halls of Mandos are shadowy and strange, and I think that the idea of various (and contradictory) myths is an important one... which is to say, I don't believe I have to decide what happens [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] .

What does everyone think about the Elves' contention that Dwarves have no afterlife at all? Isn't that equally up in the air?

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

No, I don't think so. Dwarves obviously had a life of their own, and they could speak. Two good indications that they had souls.

The belief of the Elves in Middle earth is phrased in such a way as to make it sound like the Elves in Valinor knew differently.

I think they die just as humans do, not sure though.

THanks guys i just read in the silmarillion the quote that Belin put in. I think the dwarves thoght that the seven forefathers were speciak because they were made before the other dwarves, so they thought the forefathers could reincarnate even if they couldn't

Looking back at the quote, I see that this is a good point. It's interesting, however, that the narrative doesn't quite commit itself to the Dwarves' belief either ("they say"). Is the admittance to Mandos based on possessing a soul, then? Does everyone with a soul go to the Halls of Mandos? What about Ents (assuming an Ent were to die)?
It occurs to me that the idea of the Elves that Dwarves return to stone, assuming that it's theological rather than political, would have to be based on a different conception of the Halls, in which they would think them reserved for the Children of Iluvatar. Interesting. That also explains why the Elves in Valinor would think differently; they might know more about the Halls themselves (since they were closer).
Is this right?

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

The Valinoreans could just go ask Namo if they wanted.They wouldn't do that, though, unless they knew that dwarves existed in the first place, and none of them would have known when the Noldor returned to Middle-earth.

Not that Namo would tell them or anything, but they could ask.

i think the ents just got old and sort of turned into trees but im not sure, tolkein never said much about the ents