what were The Silent Watchers?
 

I'd really like to know exactly what they (or merely their spirits)were.I've read they were Maia of little power but I'm not sure what to think of them.

Is anything written about them in Tolkien's other works?

dunno

Perhaps they were just 'enchanted' by Sauron. I mean, the One Ring had a will, so to speak, in that it did the work of its master, even when not on his finger. Likewise, Sauron could just have 'put a little of himself' in the Watchers and left that to operate independantly.

Of course, the question remains as to whether they were placed by him, or set as watchers by the men of Gondor. They might not be inherantly evil, but serving whoever owned the tower.

If I remember, the orcs commented that getting past the watchers was 'Tarks'work' ie. Numenoreans' work. This suggests that the Watchers were 'made' by the Numenoreans and had been at the tower since it was constructed.

However, I find it hard to square this with their obviously malevolant nature and with the fact that the orcs had been using this entrance for hundreds of years. The only explanation I can come up with is that Sauron, (or one of the more Sorcerous Nazgul?) broke the 'spell' (or whatever?!) but they still 'remembered' that they should allow Numenoreans in.

Anyone else for speculation???

Maybe they meant that as the Numenoreans (or at least one of them) had once managed to ‘defeat’ Sauron, they could quite possiblky defeat his Watchers, who were not as strong as he. Not sure. Is there anybody here who has read all of the HoME books and knows the answer from somewhere in there? Maybe The War of the Ring, or Sauron Defeated?

From The Tower of Cirith Ungol:

This suggests that they were, in physical form, statues, but that they were imbued with some kind of spirit. And since the spirits inside them are said to have been evil, it seems likely that they (the spirits) were placed there by Sauron, rather than by the Men of Gondor who built the Tower.

What is not clear is what the spirits within the statues were. Quite possibly, they were not "living" spirits at all, but a form of enchantment - an artificially created and unliving awareness (a sort of ME motion sensor [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). Alternatively they may have been living spirits, possibly of some lesser form of Maiar, removed from their bodies and trapped within the stone. Personally, however, I think that there is a lot to be said for Meoshi's theory that Sauron imbued with them with a small part of his own will, in the same way that he invested a (greater) part of his will in the One Ring.

Yes, that would make sense, except for the thing that the orc said about the one who got past them having to be an Elf or a tark. Where would that come in?

That could just mean that to get past them the person had to be strong and powerful such as an elf or Numenorian

Yes, Snaga's reference to the "great fighter" having got past the Watchers as being "tark's work" suggests that he considers this to be a reflection of the interloper's abilities, rather than any acceptance of his entry into the Tower by the Watchers. Otherwise he would have said something like "... and only those filthy tarks can get past them Watchers".

1) As you remember, the Watchers were subdued by light. Perhaps the orks knew that it was just impossible to overcome the Watchers by sheer force, and in whose hands could a light be? Elf's or tark's, of course.
2) 'Tark' for orks is a swear-word, isn't it. So can't 'tark's work' for orcs just mean hell of a job or devil's doing. Something hard and causing trouble. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
Btw the Watchers are hardly Numenoreans' artefact. From the description of the statues - 'vulture faces' and 'claw-like hands' - it's hard to believe that disciples of elves could produce something that ugly.

Sauron seemed to have the ability to imprison spirits such as the werewolves of the first age. The odd craftsmanship of the vultures is nothing new to Numenoreans. Orthanc is probably the strangest structure in the ME of the third age. A lot of the Numenorean's architecture has an alien tilt to it. What I mean is there is no reference to where they came up with much of their design ideas. I'm a little off topic. It's an odd subject, there are other references to undefined minor spirits being used by Sauron and Melkor to inhabit various creatures (mainly wolves). Based on what types of life that are listed in all I've read, they would have to be some type of minor Maiar. One question though, what would they be doing for all those thousands of years?

I think that it does have something to do with Numenorean. I don't know if tark in orkish slang would be used as a swear word, but its real meaning is this: -Appendix F, LotR

If we put that with what Snaga said -RotK, The Tower of Cirith Ungol

we can see that the Watchers have some kind of weakness to those of Numenorean blood.

This article has an unusual and persuasive idea as to what all those spirits are. It really starts about halfway down.

I had always assumed the Watchers were something of Sauron's work. I hadn't really considered how the tower was originally Gondor's work, although that seems to make it pretty clear.

Chancellen, do you have any more examples about the Numenorean's "alien" architecture? You only mentioned Orthanc. The instance that always impressed me the most was Minas Tirith, and that seems a far cry from the watchtower of the pass.

That was a cool article! Thanks for the link, Nuranar.

What does everyone think about it? It gives a much more clear explanation on why Sauron was called the Necromancer.

So Sauron, as a necromancer, communed with the dead and subdued them to his will. Maybe the watchers were houseless spirits of elves that were enslaved to do the willl of Sauron.

Houseless elf fea from the depths of time, well maybe, but I don't like the idea somehow. I can see that Michael Martinez has found justification in Tolkien's writings, but the whole idea of nasty elf ghosts wandering the world doesn't seem right to me. Now if they were orc fea... (but that gets us into a whole new discussion thread!)

I'm still confused on the Watchers, though its a good point that the only people likely to bring strong light would be the 'Tarks'. They do seem too nasty to be Numenorean carving, however, the statues of Isidur and Elendil were certainly intimidating and Tolkien did say the Numenoreans were similar in attitude to the ancient Egyptians (who had a vulture headed god if I remember).

Another Bombadilesque enigma perhaps?? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I still dont get why Sauron was called the Necromancer, and Ive read the article several times.

Eitherway, those things were filled with evil spirits, but they were defeated and frightened by Galadriel`s magic.

Main Entry: nec·ro·man·cy
Pronunciation: 'ne-kr&-"man(t)-sE
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of Middle English nigromancie, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin nigromantia, by folk etymology from Late Latin necromantia, from Late Greek nekromanteia, from Greek nekr- + -manteia -mancy
Date: 1522
1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

presumably Sauron was able to conjure the spirits of the dead for his own uses.

And thats probably why Dol Guldur and the Black Forest were such terrible and dangerous places, since they were haunted by Sauron's spirits...

Still, I dont think Sauron was able to enslave elven spirits... Morgoth was able but because he had the power of a Valar. Sauron, being a maiar, did not had that much power...

Perhaps they were created by Melkor, like the Balrogs, but not as common place. They could have fallen asleep and then re-awoken by Sauron. There's so many possible answers, it boggles the mind. That's the kind of history that should be left to the imagination I think.

Sauron the Necromancer was master of fell spirits (obviously before the Necromancy days he was gifted in placing them into places where they didn't belong like into the werewolves). During his days 'in cognito' the seemingly endless supply of fell spirits was tapped again and many haunted Angmar and Carn Dum, and migrated to the Barrow Hills. They found their way into the dead, and reanimated the corpses. But it would seemingly be more easy to 'haunt', to place a spirit into a former living thing than a statue. That's where Sauron's talent as a master artificer comes in. He was good, he made the ring, under his watch the other rings were made, by his tutelage even the elf rings, and Barad Dur, Sammath Nuar, the great highways and lava channels, so obviously that was one of his projects put to good use, Sauron certainly didn't go to Cirith Ungol and build it, it was probably the work of a few trolls getting the obsidian statue all the way up that mountainside. That statue could've once guarded Dol Goldur, or anything else. There were probably dozens of them littering each of his major fortresses. He was very good at making these sorts of things.

A bit of speculation here, but I wonder where the 'fell spirits' were Elves who refused to go to Mandos. It does mention in Morgoth's Ring that Sauron called them as he was 'the Necromancer'.

You have a point about that. but i have another theory. what if Sauron tainted the spirits of the blue wizards and used their spirits in the watchers?
so little is known of the blue wizards, it could be possible

Blue Watchers?
 

Given the shortage of information about the fates of the Ithryn Luin, that is certainly a possibility; but I think it unlikely. Firstly, Tolkien does offer his own speculations about the fates of the Blue Wizards in Letter 211 (also cited in Unfinished Tales):

Although this is a very vague and uncertain declaration, it seems inconsistent with the idea that Alatar and Pallando were imprisoned in a pair of statues. After all, the Silent Watchers would be unable to start any cults or traditions at all, since they seem unable to communicate except in wails and screams. Personally I think that if Sauron had suborned two of the Istari to his service he would have more important work for them than guarding the tower of Cirith Ungol. They would have been able to cause chaos among the forces of the West had they appeared and begun to contradict Gandalf's messages and advice.

Tolkien says of the Silent Watchers:

Sam passes their vigilance twice: once to get into the tower and once to take Frodo out.

Two things occur to me on reading these passages: firstly, like Shelob, the Watchers can be cowed by the use of Galadriel's phial, and they also seem to be susceptible to the name of Elbereth as are the Ringwraiths. Secondly, Tolkien refers to their will and spirit in the singular, making them into a single entity. This suggests to me that the most likely explanation for them is that Sauron has invested them with some measure of his own malice and power, just as he did with the One Ring. The other, rather less likely, alternative, if these things must be explained, is that the spirit of a Man or Elf has been corrupted and imprisoned in the statues and the gate. I have a feeling that two Maiar acting in concert would just be too powerful for two hobbits to overcome, let alone one on his own.

That being said, though, I think that the Watchers are more effective in their narrative context for their inscrutability. The fact of their malicious will is enough for me: I don't need to know how it got there, and the feeling of the unknown that they evoke adds to their menace. That may even be why Tolkien left them unexplained.

For me the imagery doesn't fit with the idea that these were a Numenorean device. When Sam passes through, Tolkien's language throughout is consistent with forcing a barrier, not using a key; especially since one immediate consequence is that an alarm goes off! As mentioned above, the name of Elbereth, combined with Earendil's light, somehow cows or suppresses evil wills, as with the Witch-king and Shelob.

I don't see the parallels with Orthanc, which may be odd or even forbidding, but which Tolkien never describes as 'hideous', nor does he ascribe 'malice' to anything not of Sauronian origin.

yes, but did not sauron take control of those lands? and maybe only one was caught. perhaps the other may have been tainted and placed in the watchers. and look at it this way. as you have said, "Sauron would have put them to better use than guardians of Cirith Ungol". if my theory is correct, perhaps they were like the seven dwarves. weak enough to taint, but too strong to take control of.

But there were at least four Watchers!
 

I think, however, that there were more than two Silent Watchers - I suppose at least two more were in Minas Morgul:
As we know, Gorbag was leader in Minas Morgul. These are not Shagrat's Silent Watchers from Cirith Ungol we are speaking about here.
So if the Blue Wizards were to become Silent Watchers (which I find unlikely, supported even by the evidence stated in posts above), we would need two more unknown Wizards to occupy the posts in Minas Morgul.

I am more inclined to think about the "spirits", maybe even as hwaim said even trapped spirits of someone... but if you gave me the choice, I'd most likely side with Squatter:

Blue wizards? If Sauron had somehow managed to trap Alatar's and Pallando's spirits, would he use them to guard the tower? Surely it was an important border place, but with Shelob already there, it feels like a huge waste of resources.

In general, I think the watchers were originally "ordinary" watch statues made by Númenóreans of great craft and skills and Sauron then set some evil spirits or some of his own power in them and thus made them "alive".

Hm, I have trouble picturing the Numenoreans making such sculptures
They look as living beings twisted for some purpose - a Machine if I may say so. Such deformations of living creatures could only be, imo, an expression of evil, not one of celebrating life and positive values.