Military strength of Numenor
 

How strong were the numenoreans? If they were to exist in the first age, could they helped the elves alone without the aid of Valinor against Morgoth's army?

Well, of course in a way the Numenorians did exist in the First Age (as the Edain of the three houses fighting Morgoth)- Tuor, Turin, Beren One-Hand, etc.). While individually not quite up to the greatest human warrior of all (Turin) the Numenorean forces were said to be the greatest army since the Valar finally intervened at the end of the First Age- but then Sauron was a weak imitation of Morgoth.

But of course, fighting with the elves under the ban, and without Earendil, Eagles, and the angelic Valar and Maiar they would at most have bought time, not overthrown Morgoth---although if they had siege and fortress storming techniques which the elves clearly did not (banging on metal gates to be let in isn't frightfully effective) they could have made things interesting. But it would need to be the Numenorians of say Tar-Aldarion, not Ar-Pharazon.

It seems a shame to give a curt response to an opening post on the Downs (welcome by the way) but it seems a clear "no". The Numenoreans were great among men physically and with their longer life spans but they are shown at their strongest compared against lesser men and later generation elves. No disrespect to Gil-galad who was clearly a great warrior, but perhaps not quite equal to the likes of Fingolfin who had dwellt in Aman. In the third age Glorfindel (accepting Tolkien's later conclusion that he was Glorfindel of Gondolin reborn and returned to Middle Earth as a champion of the Valar) was almost certainly the most powerful Elf warrior remaining and notable as such. In the first age he, while rightly celebrated for his valour and battle with the Balrog he is not so remarkable - more one tale of courage in arms among many.

I suppose it is comparable maybe to the influence the Grey Company had on the War of the Ring. The Dunedain of the North and the sons of Elrond were worth more than many times the headcount of lesser men and were vital in the role they played in the Battle of the Pelennor but Sauron would not have been overthrown without the destruction of the Ring. The Numenoreans could have been useful in holding off and depleting Morgoth's army but I don't think even an unlimited number of them could have overthrown Morgoth himself without the assistance of beings of equal status.

So the numenoreans army would easily destroy Morgoth's orcs, trolls but dragons and Balrog could cause them a lot of troubles?

It's not only about physical power. Balrogs and dragons were mighty creatures, sure, both in body and will. But I don't think that's the key idea here. You can destroy all of Morgoth's troops on battlefield but lose the war, because you cannot destroy Morgoth. You need an equal for that: an Ainu.

Since Morgoth lost so much power a Maia was "enough". Likewise, an Elf and two Men were "enough" for Sauron in the late Second Age.

The numenoreans could contaimed him in his fortress after to have laid waste to his armies.

That is a possibility one can imagine to happen, but then we would have the Second Age fiasco all over again: Morgoth eventually starting negotiating with them and in the end corrupting them and turning them against the Elves, preferably, or at least corrupting part of them and turning them against each other. Or, another possibility, he could just sit inside and wait for their guard to weaken (while still breeding some new horrors in some deep caverns and then unleashing them, just like he did with Glaurung - I mean, what you are proposing is basically the same thing as the union of Maedhros: Angband surrounded, but Morgoth still inside, only waiting for his moment). Morgoth has time. The mortals don't. And they don't have very strong will. He has. He could really easily corrupt at least some of them, I think, and that would be sufficient.

A big enough number of orcs could give the Númenoreans "a lot of trouble" but I don't see why a decent number of Númenoreans wouldn't be able to overcome trolls or even dragons (or some really heroic or lucky individuals hitting the right spots - like Bard managed to kill Smaug much later :rolleyes:).

Whether they could have matched with Balrogs I think is a bit harder to ascertain as I think it comes to the "mind-bussiness" of which we seem to know somewhat little about. The Great Elves of old stood their ground against Balrogs, the Dwarves did, Gandalf did (even if it always meant death to them as well)... but the Númenorians? My gut feeling would be yes, they could have stood against them, but well, that's speculation.

To elaborate on what other posters have said, particularly Mith and Legate, I think if you are going to make comparative assumptions regarding an army plopped into another Age of Middle-earth, it must be done in context, and with the baggage train they carried.

For instance, if you are speaking of a Numenorean army, which one precisely? If you are referring to the armada of Ar-Pharazon, I believe it would be likely that they would have already been seduced by Morgoth and turn on the Elves. Remember, many of them already worshipped in the cult of Morgoth. Beyond that, the corruptibility of Men is well documented throughout Tolkien's corpus. And as others have stated, Morgoth had an eternity to work his wiles.

But aside from context, in reality, no Numenorean army would do anything but delay the inevitable victory of Morgoth as pronounced in the Doom of Mandos. It was a no-win situation. Defeat was ordained. And really, the Edain that fought against Morgoth were if anything just as powerful a force as the Numenoreans. They were their ancestors, after all.

This seems like the key here. There's an almost universal theme in the Silmarillion, it seems to me, of "fading:" all good things must come to an end, and everybody falls eventually, so it's doubtful the Numenoreans could have done anything the Edain didn't.

That said, there is a little leeway, since there's a fair bit of emphasis in the Akallabeth, it seems to me, on how great and glorious Numenor was before its decline, but it's still doubtful that they could've done anything especially huge. Legate and Galadriel55 have already made the same points on the topic I would - any battle against what I would term a "high" creature, such as an Ainu, must ultimately come down to spiritual power, not physical, whether that be the purity to avoid corruption or merely the mental strength to face such a one down.

I think the fading usually is with the Elves whereas the age of Men is waxing. I believe the Numenorians were greater than their Edain ancestors. They are said to be closer to the Eldar than to men; "in all things more like to the First-born than any other of the kindreds of Men;" [Sil; 321]. Now their power did wane due to their rebellion and desertion of Eldar-like lifestyle. That's why the Kings in Numenor were only living like 250 years whereas the Faithful still had greater lifespans. Elendil was over 300 when he fought Sauron. Ar-Pharazon felt his end coming when he was about the same age of Aragorn when he died.

This is interesting because Numenor was great in military prowess. "Ar-Pharazon, King of the Land of the Star, grew to the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth" [Sil; 339] However, Sauron's was the hand that wielded this great power, "in truth Sauron ruled all from behind the throne", so it's possible they would have been a force for Melkor and made his victory over the Noldor complete. They would have probably been Melkor's greatest unit in the end though the Faithful would probably bolster the Elve's strength, they were lesser in number.

The dragons and Balrogs gave everyone a lot of trouble.

so powerful that they could target individuals with fourth generation military tech from thousands and thousands of miles away, infect a whole geographic area using horrendous biological nanotech and destroy global systems using stealth viruses on a global computer network, the ability to incinerate an entire city from Space using targeted energy weaponry, and use unmanned drones to deploy hellish destruction all from the comfort of home :smokin:

:Merisu:

i'm kidding, of course ;)

At the Council, Elrond remembers the Last Alliance, but comments that great and glorious as it was it didn't compare to the host at the breaking of Thangorodrim.

Of course, the former was just the remnant Faithful of Numenor plus Gil-Galad's elves, whereas the latter was the combined hosts of the Maiar/Vanyar/nonexiled Noldor.