Cookie Cutter Characters--Repetition Through Ancestry
 

In this thread, I'd like to bring up the repetition of character situations compared to the problems that arose in their forefathers' lives.

The most obvious case is the similarity between Thingol, Luthien, Beren and Elrond, Arwen, Aragorn.


Each has direct ancestry with his/her corresponding figure. Elrond is Thingol's great great grandson. Arwen is Luthien's great great granddaughter. And Aragorn's family tree can be directly traced back to Beren.

There is also an extreme similarity in their situations. Thingol and Elrond refuse to allow the marriage of Luthien and Arwen until Beren and Aragorn have proven themselves through accomplishing some feat. While the surroundings of this task differ greatly, it has the same purpose.

Aragorn, in fact, meets Arwen in almost exactly the same way that Beren meets Luthien. And, in the end, Elrond allows Aragorn to marry Arwen, and Thingol allows Beren and Luthien to do the same. Also, Arwen and Luthien both choose to die as mortals and pass out of the world. Both Arwen and Luthien actually die of sorrow shortly after their husbands' deaths.

One more thing. Both Aragorn and Beren have some sort of secret sign of high power that they recieved from their fathers, for Aragorn it's Narsil, for Beren it's Felagund's ring.

I'm sure there are more cases of situation reoccurences throughout the history of middle-earth. Otherwise, comments are always open on this example! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Gathering Lillypads,
Iarwain

P.S. I hope that's easier to understand!

[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

There is one difference in the two situations you have put forward, Iarwain.

Elrond's condition on the marriage of his daughter was a worthy one. Aragorn was to reclaim his rightful throne, which necessarily entailed the defeat of Sauron (it would have been a short-lived reign otherwise).

Thingol's condition on the marriage of Beren and Luthien, on the other hand, seems rather foolish. Having ruled his kingdom quite happily without much concern for what was going on outside, he suddenly decides to tie its fate in with Feanor's oath (and thereby Mandos's prophecy). The defeat of Morgoth might have been a worthy aim, but the gaining of one Silmaril was hardly likely to guarantee peace and happiness for his subjects (or the rest of Beleriand for that matter). In fact quite the opposite, given that he knew Feanor's sons were sworn to regain the Silmarils.

So, while I think that you are right that there is a comparison to be made, Elrond's condition seems to me to be the far more sensible one.

[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

I agree, Saucepan, though Elrond's request was almost equally as hopeless as Thingol's. You're right, because Elrond really had nothing against Arwen and Aragorn's marriage, he just wanted to ensure her future. They are remarkably similiar, all the same. I'm wondering if perhaps Tolkien wanted to bring his favorite tale into his epic work in more than a song...

Iarwain

Can you pplz get less confuzzling for me?It's hard to understand and you just spoiled the ending for those who don't know it.Thanks alot(NOT!) [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

I'm sorry, luin'loki, but I don't believe that that should fetter our discussions. I suppose that there's really nothing that I can do about it. I don't really know what to say. I hope you enjoy the book all the same, I think.

Befuddled,
Iarwain

P.S. I think that most of the threads in this forum have spoilers in them. If you haven't finished LotR yet, much less the Silmarillion, there is no way you'll understand this thread. I suggest you avoid it, because it is likely that more stuff is going to be dug up that you haven't read yet. I wouldn't like to ruin anything else for you.

[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

Another difference between Elrond and Thingol is that Elrond actively helps Aragorn fulfill the marriage requirement. He 1) raises Aragorn at Rivendell knowing the prophesy of his future 2) sends his sons to fight alongside Aragorn when he could just have easily have claimed he needed them to defend Rivendell. 3) reminds Aragorn of Malbeth's prophesy regarding the paths of the Dead, which was a key point in the outcome of the battle.

Thingol on the other hand, struck me as hoping Beren would fail, as an elaborate scheme to get rid of him.

Iarwain, I'm trying to understand your use ot the "cookie cutter" term. It strikes me as pejorative, as if Tolkien ran out of good ideas for characters. I'm not sure how you really mean the term though.

One interesting point is that Tolkien actually draws attention to the parallel you make, by having Aragorn call Arwen "Tinuviel" when he first meets her. If he had simply run out of character ideas, why would he give us an obvious reminder like that of his lack of imagination?

If we examine Tolkien's world view as expressed through The Music of the Ainur, there are musical themes which are repeated. Certainly this is true in virtually all pieces of music, and I think Tolkien saw history as being the same way (involving repetitive elements), hence his choice of music as the metaphor. In particular, Melkor's discordant music was "one theme repeated endlessly" while the harmonious themes of the other Ainur also had repetitive elements, but less annoyingly so.

One particular repetition is Fëanor/Celebrimbor.

Fëanor made the three silmarils, which were stolen by Morgoth, causing a long and tragic war, and ultimately ended up in Air (Earendil), Water (Maglor) and Fire/Earth (Maédhros).

Celebrimbor his grandson made the three elven rings, which represented Air (Vilya, which ended up in the possession of Earendil's son Elrond), Water (Nenya), and Fire (Narya). Morgoth's former protegé Sauron stole them (figuratively, by making the One Ring to control them) resulting in a long and tragic war.

[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

Beautiful, Angry Hill Troll, I love it.

I am not saying that Tolkien ran out of ideas at all, I'm just looking at the similiar aspects of very different characters and events throughout the history of middle-earth. I'm merely considering reasons for providing characters with these similarities. They're very interesting to look at.

I love the idea of music. It works. Each generation is but a movement in the great symphony of time and life. I've never thought about that before.

Celebrimbor was a good repetition too! I bet there are many more like that that few people have noticed.


Grinning,
Iarwain

luin'loki, I'm sorry if you have had the endings of any of the books spoiled by what is said here. But you will find this happening dairly frequently if you read the threads in this forum. Since this forum is for advanced discussion of Tolkien's works, some threads will inevitably make reference to the books' outcomes.

I've got another one, but it isn't quite as ascestral as the others.

Shelob (descendant of Ungoliant) works along side Sauron (lieutenant of Morgoth), just as Ungoliant and Morgoth worked along side each other.


Iarwain