Treebeard the wise?
 

I was wondering if anyone thought it weird that Treebeard called Saruman "young Saruman down at Isengard" Treebeard is pretty smart, so wouldn't he know that Saruman is much older than him? Also, what does the mar in Angmar mean?

Oh I don't know if Saruman is older than Treebeard. The "Shepherds of the Trees" were on of the first to be created at the request of Yavanna. I suppose one may assume that Treebeard was among them. Am I wrong?

Being that Saruman is the Maia Curumo, and Treebeard 'only' an Ent, the 'young' can mean three things: young to the lands of Middle-Earth -- Saruman only came at the beginning of the Third Age. Or it could mean that Treebeard knew that Curumo did not take shape until not so long ago, so his body, physical form of Saruman, could be considered young. Or Treebeard simply did not know Saruman was a Maia and assumed he was born sometime late Second or early Third Age only.

I would think that the most likely. Treebeard did have a lot of wisdom, but he wasn't all knowing. On the other hand, he seemed to be on very good terms with Gandalf. Did Gandalf keep his origin secret from Treebeard? If so, why? If not, why wouldn't Treebeard know Saruman was a creature of the same order?

<center><font color="red">I was always under the impression that Saruman and Treebeard were originally good friends...

Then again, treebeard also said somewhere that although he told Saruman lots about the forest etc, Saruman never told him anything, so its quite likely he wouldn't have known.

And I think Gandalf knew Treebeard but something tells me they never had time for a long conversation, as Gandalf was always busy or watching over the shire.

I would agree that Treebeard probably didn't know that Sauraman was a Maia, and calls him young in reference to his time on Middle Earth.

Hmm.. I think that Treebeard did know that Saruman was a maia but he ment 'young' as stupid or something like that... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Because Saruman started to serve Sauron..

I think this one best descibes what Treebeard meant by "young". Treebeard knew that Saruman was a wizard and that he had appeared from over the sea(or atleast around the time the ships arrived). I would assume that he would have guessed that they had indeed come from the "Undying Lands", and were not just mere men, since the Istari had arrived early in the 3rd age(c.III 1000), and at the time of the "War of the Ring" it was 2000 years later. Treebeard confesses that he has spoken with both Gandalf and Saruman, and from what little information they revealed, he at-least fiqured out that they were not mortals(or maybe just lived for many generations, since they Istari were there for roughly 2000 years), and were very powerful in arts that most Men did not have.

Treebeard was immensely old, and apparently immortal. The Ents originated shortly after the Elves. There is a little note I copied from the Internet:


Fangorn is the first of the ents. He would have awakened as Fangorn when the first elves did. He would have been a "spirit called from afar" by Yavanna to dwell within an olvar, which sounds as if he would originally be a Maia spirit of Yavanna. Like Gandalf, his memory of times before his life in Arda could have been lessened or removed, leaving only his mission. It could be assumed that when the time of ents was done, his Maia spirit would return to Yavanna in Valinor and resume all memory. To view that website click here.

It appears that Ents came before Man, but after Elves. And men were not seen in Arda until many thousands of years after the Eldar. And that since Saruman appeared in the form of a Man, that Treebeard knowing the "Lore of Living Creatures", would have also assumed that He(ents) came before man, and would their for be older, hench the "young" term. I believe that Treebeard knew or guessed(like I stated above) that Saruman was no mere man, and that the "young" term was just for the time he had spent on M-E.


"When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." Manwe to Yavanna

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]