Battles in the North
 

Let's talk about the Battles in the North (Mar 11-30, TA 3019).

There are many things to consider. I have been looking at Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of MIddle Earth and RotK "Tale of the Years" and I am wondering if anyone knows of any other cannon sources.

This has always fascinated me and I am looking into it to a great degree at the present time. Several things have recently struck me about these battles.

First, Fonstad posits that the route taken by the Easterlings was from Northeast of the Sea of Rhun (East of Dorwinion) over the River Carnen and straight on to Dale. This route is appealing for several reasons because it allows the Enemy's army to bypass the Iron Hills and any of the remaining Men of Rhovanion living between Mirkwood and the River Celduin. They also seemed to have bypassed the recently-rebuilt Esgaroth. This all seems to make sense, but it raises a few questions, especially about the Siege of Erebor which lasted nearly a fortnight. For one, what was the role of the Men of Esgaroth in the Battle of Dale and the Siege? Also, why did Thranduil not turn his attention to the Easterling forces during the fifteen days following his victory under the trees in Mirkwood? Are we to assume that after the Battle of the Five Armies, he fell into his old xenophobic ways? Or, was he too busy marching to meet Celeborn in the middle of Greenwood, over twenty days later?

Just one more item. What about troop movements. I am looking from some good information on the speed of Sauron's forces. Fonstad lumps the three earliest battles together and says that "Simultaneous with the departure from Mordor on March 10, these northern troops sallied forth against their appointed targets." This is clearly incorrect. The Morgul host issued forth on Mar 10 and the Pelennor was overrun on Mar 13. That means it takes, in Tolkien's world, three days for an army to travel 50 miles. Of the larger force from Morannon, we know not when it left, but we do know that it captured Cair Andros on Mar 10. This makes perfect sense since it is a full 50 miles from there to Pelennor.

What am I getting at? The Northern Allies would have been far more forewarned of their enemy's advance. It is a good 120 miles from Dul Guldur to the banks of the Anduin at the borders of Lorien and that is just the beginning of this kind of thing.

Sorry to be lengthy, but I'd love to hear what everyone has to say about the "Battles in the North."

By 'eck
 

Hi Rhugga,

nice thread, this aspect has fascinated me too (any year now I'll get back to 'Battles of the Late Third Age' - possibly;)) .

Fonstad's pretty good I think, but she's interpretation not canon! I suppose the only real information is in the Appendices of LoTR - I've not heard report of anything relevant in HoME?

IIRC there was a battle at the Fords of the Celduin. (Am I mis-remembering this? I think I need to re-read!). Then the Dale-men retreated to Dale, were defeated and holed up in Erebor.

The men of Dale ruled a wide land eastwards to the Celduin. Was Esgaroth independent or under the King of Dale by this stage?

Esgaroth was probably fairly secure against the Easterlings in the short term, with its famous easily-defended causeway (disregarding dragons of course!). On the other hand Erebor was no easy target! Maybe the Easterlings were motivated by the legendary gold and jools of the Lonely Mountain?

Thranduil, hmm tricky - could be he indeed took 20 days to get to Mid-Mirkwood, presumably pursuing orcs and fell beasts and despatching spiders etc. We know it was VERY tangled, and Bilbo & co. took ages and ages to cross the forest even with the aid of the elf path.

Sloppy construction on my part. But I know what you mean, Mirkwood is hard to navigate. If the army that fought against Thranduil did indeed issue from Dol Guldur, then Fonstad's route which remains mostly West of Southern Mirkwood before entering the forest closer to Thranduil's realm would make sense. However, this a long haul. First, would they be harried by Woodmen and Beornings? Also, given the speed of the army from Minas Morgul, a battle fought close the Elven Kings Halls would take at least 23 days to reach. This seems a bit ridiculous, and I don't wonder if Thranduil didn't issue forth from his Halls sometime before the 15th of March and met the Enemy's forces somewhere farther away, maybe in the middle of Mirkwood (if you go for an alternative route for the forces from Dol Guldur) or perhaps on its edge?

Rumil,

Perhaps my D&D and film memories are salient in my head, but I was always under the impression that terrain, in and of itself, presented no problem to the elves.

That would give the elves a great advantage over the orcs, and give them some parity with the spiders of Mirkwood. As for Fell Beasts, I would imagine those creatures staying out of arrow range.

Tree with an elf-shaped hole
 

Hi Andsigil,

I agree that Thranduil's wood elves were likely top-notch at travelling and navigating through Mirkwood. However a thick wood must slow anyone down, in comaprison with travelling a flat plain.

Interestingly Legolas mentions that in the attack that freed Gollum, the orcs were new to the forest and unskilled in woodcraft (iirc), this at least implies that they occasionally encountered more wood-crafty orcs. This ties in nicely with Galadriel complaining that Dol Guldur had been re-inorced sevenfold since the days of The Hobbit.

Rhugga, intersting, I must get round to re-reading properly before a considered reply!;)

The last thing I will mention is that Celeborn must move with great speed. Indeed, in the same day he crossed the Anduin and began the destruction of Dol Guldur. From the Eastern border of Lothlorien to the Anduin to the Tower of Sorcery it almost 120 miles. An incredible feat.