counter spell of the Balrog
 

at the bridge of Khazad-dum, Gandalf speaks of his first initial struggle with the balrog, although he does not know what it is yet. he says Is this explained anywhere else in tolkiens writings? Do Balrogs have the power of spells and some magic? Or is it just a metaphor referring to the evil of the Balrog? He also said I am just wondering if this is an only instance or is it explained elsewhere about these powers

As the world itself began with the word (EA! of Illuvatar), so word, I believe, remained the medium of power. So Felagund and Sauron contest in incantations, so wizards and elves use spells and rhymes (+ remember Bombadil), so there is no reason for balrogs not to use those (still more them being Maiar)

If it is a spell it is not spoken, for balrogs are silent and never utter a sound.

do not they, really? I'm serious, can you refer me to the source, for I have digged up a lot on balrogs for the article, but I do not remeber reading they were silent

"The most terrible of the Maiar spirits who became the servants of Melkor, the Dark Enemy, were those who were transformed into demons. In the High Elven tongue they were named the Valaraukar, but in Middle-earth were called Balrogs, the 'demons of might.'

Of all Melkor's creatures, only Dragons were greater in power. Huge and hulking, the Balrogs were Man-like demons with streaming manes of fire and nostrils that breathed flame. They seemed to move within clouds of black shadows and their limbs had the coiling power of serpents. The chief weapon of the Balrog was the many-thonged whip of fire, and, though as well they carried the mace, the axe and the flaming sword, it was the whip of fire that enemies feared most. This weapon was so terrible that the vas evil of Ungoliant, the Great Spider that even the Valor could not destroy, was driven from Melkor's realm by the fiery lashes of the Balrog demons.

Most infamous of the Balrog race was Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs and High Captain of Angband. In the Wars of Beleriand three High Elven-lords fell beneath the whip and black axe of Gothmog. After the Battle under Stars, Feanor, the most renowned of Elven-kings, was cut down by Gothmog at the very doors of Angband. In the Battle of the Sudden Flame, he slew Fingon, High King of the Noldor. Finally, again in the service of Melkor, Gothmog led the Balrog host and its Troll-guard and marshalled the Orc legions and the Dragon brood, before storming and sacking the kingdom of Gondolin and killing Ecthelion, the Elf-lord. But it was here at the Fall of Gondolin, the Square of the King, that Gothmog met his end, by the had of Ecthelion, whom he himself had just slain.

In each of Melkor's risings and in each of his battles, the Balrogs were among his foremost champions, and so, when the holocaust of the War of Wrath ended Melkor's reign for ever, it largely ended the Balrogs as a race.

It was said that some fled that last battle and buried themselves deep in the roots of mountains, but after many thousands of years nothing more was heard of these evil beings and most people believed the demons had gone from the Earth for ever. However, during the Third Age of Sun the deep-delving Dwarves of Moria by accident released an entombed demon. Once unleashed, the Balrog struck down two Dwarf-kings, and, gathering Orcs and Trolls to aid him, drove the Dwarves from Moria for ever. As is told in the "Red Book of Westmarch", the Balrog's dominion remained uncontested for over two centuries, until he was cast down from the peak of Zirakzigil by the Wizard Gandalf after the Battle on the Bridge of Khazad-dum."

Ah, upon rereading the reference, I find it only applies to the balrog of Moria, and possibly only in this one scene, so diregard my inanity. Thank you. Out of interest, the reference is from the letters.

Letter 210

so do you think they are powerful enough to percieve and cast spells through their mind? Gandalf and the balrog obviously percieved each other, but neither knew what the other was. If the reference you just spoke of (Balrogs remaining silent) only refers to that certain case, then it is hard to determine an understanding of this instance. He specifically says "counter-spell". Im still not sure exactly what this means. I need to dig out my letters. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] thanks X-phial and Heron-istarion. if you stumble upon anything else please post!

So, even if this is a one time instance, how can it be explained if the Balrog does not speak? Gandalf specifically says counter-spell. I am lost! Any more references?

Here is how I understand it:

'Spells' were for Maiar an expression of their creative spirit and power.

Consider Sauron and the words he spoke on finalizing the one Ring, which Celebrimbor 'heard' hundreds of miles away.

Does the lord of the Ringwraiths speak when he breaks Frodo's sword at the ford ?

Obviously he is not a Maia, but he same principle I think applies. 'Magic' can be exercised by those who have the power and skill, by and large with or without words.

Gandalf seems to favor them, though he utters no words on the hill in Fangorn Forest when he causes Anduril to flame, Legolas' arrows to combust, etc.

[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Well, Balrogs had to make some kind of sound, because when Hurin was captured by Gothmog, it was said that the latter dragged him in with much mockery. I think mockery involves some form of vocalization.

Not nessarily for actions can also be mockery because mimes can make fun of people without speaking. I don't know if the Balrog was powerful enough to cast spells with his mind but maybe he could speak a language that no mortal or elven ears for that matter could hear.

I see no reason that a counter-spell must entail speaking. It wouldn't be the first time there was a battle of wills in Middle Earth that didn't envolve direct contact. In my mind I see Gandalf preparing for the minds of orcs and coming into contact with the power of a Balrog directed against him. In this context, I think the opposing will could be considered the "counter-spell." Granted this is my personal speculation.

that could be a possibility, but Gandalf then says that the door began to open, and he had to speak a word of command, to proved to great a strain and the door burst into pieces. His language implies that it does not happen out of physical force of the balrog, but rather a force of power simular to his own. If the balrog is casting a spell, it has to be with his mind. (if thats possible?)

I reckon it is. Cf backward journey of the hobbits, when Gandalf, Celeborn and Galadriel converse without words. Also, if I remember correctly, lindil up there has a link in his signature to Osanwe-Kenta. One can follow that up, I should say

cheers

Well, I was wrong with the link in the sig, yet here we have:

Osanwe-Kenta

the maiar are what we might call creatures from a higher plane of being that have come into ours. i think that the "spell" is only represented by words that give it power in this world. i dont believe that if i suddenly said the counter commmand the door would close i think that words are the smallest and an almost uneeded part of the spells. and that the balrog may have been powerful enought not to need this skill to use the spell for remember the istari were robbed of much of their power when put in human guise and this may be a result of this.(the need to speak words).

welcome to the Downs, william [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I tend to move rather along the lines as of logo being the prime mover. Tying it up with the Bible once again, the ME, as the RW, began with a word (ea). So the word, thought or spoken, remained medium for any kind of power, great or small. Assuming Sauron to be more than a mere Balrog, I can't help remebering the incantanion of one ring to rule them all etc etc, wich is also exercise in power melted into words. And, if I recall correctly, the mental exercise, since Celembrimboro overheard it mentally

Yes, psionic ability -- the power of 'projected thought', what you are talking about here -- certainly existed in ME. Sauron (while, as you say, also known to have used incantations) is perhaps the best demonstrator; obviously a special skill of his. It was through the sheer massive force of his will that the armies of his Orcs were controlled and pressed onwards. The power that appeared to emanate from the Ring is probably similar to this, and that apparent conciousness of the Ring I believe to come from this.

So I think that both these methods, psionic and through Word, were probably viable in Middle-Earth. The Balrog may have simply used the former.

(Edit: deleted 'word of God' assertion as it is already stated in HI's post... sorry about that, I must have missed it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

[ August 05, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

Just a note on a portion of the quote provided above from Letters:
"20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer."

JRRT actually got this wrong as the Balrog does make a vocal sound:
After Gandalf breaks the bridge:
"With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished."
LotR, FotR

Interesting, but still I think the sort of power that the Balrog possessed was of the mind, rather than, like Gandalf's, through 'words of command'. Balrogs may have been able to shriek out (actually, it is possible that the 'cry' was produced un-vocally), but is one ever recorded actually articulating?

"actually, it is possible that the 'cry' was produced un-vocally"

If tree falls in the middle of a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

If a Balrog cries out when falling into a fissure, and the Fellowship is present, does anyone hear him?

As I cannot, try as I might, see anything of relevance in that post I am afraid there is nothing for me to add. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

when pippin looks into the palintir he says that he was questioned without sauron saying anything but he could hear him. i think it is possible that someone or something could be powerful enough to make things happen with strength of mind.

It is true, Squire; but the Palantiri were different. Communication through the seeing-stones actually always took place in this way (i.e. words seemingly transmitted straight to the mind).

However the example of the Palantiri can, though, be considered another instance of thought-transmitting in Arda. The stones themselves provided an alleyway for their users through which this should happen directly.

well, I kind of saw that every spell that is uttered in LotR is spoken, all be it whispered. therefore, I allways thought of Balrogs being able to speak, maybe not very good, but still...

btw, are dragons really more powerfull?

In these threads

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000856

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000874

you can find a lot of information that may answer your question [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

thank you [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I knew there had been a discussion about this question, but I were never able to see the answer (if there was any answer [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])