Astronomy and astrology in Middle-Earth?
 

We all know how important the stars were for the Elves and in the whole Middle-Earth, the light in the world, whose part the stars are, was itself a matter of wars uncountable. I would like to explore one thing here: How was it with astronomy and/or astrology in Middle-Earth? Were they cultivated? To what extent? We know the stars in Middle-Earth had somewhat dubious nature: they came from the dew of the Two Trees. But it seems that they were observed - and the question is, was it only for, let's say, entertaining purposes (watching the skies on clear summer nights and making poems), or did some people (Men, Elves...) study their movements (astronomy), eventually make some conclusions based on that (astrology)? Throughout the books, there are some mentions of people observing the skies, like Tar-Palantír, or the stewards of Orthanc:

The fact that it is said here that these were wise men seems to imply that they did not watch the stars just for their amusement, but for some other purpose connected with their wisdom. That would point to astronomers. To what extent did they cultivate this science? If the stars were nothing more than dew of the Trees, then...? Could the astronomers map their movements, their luminosity, and what else? Distance? Hard to believe. Satellites of planets? Are there any? And what about Sun and Moon - do we have Crater Copernicus or is it just a hole on the surface of Tilion's vessel? What did Tolkien say about this topic? Did his views change at any point?

Astrology, if there was any, is a matter even more controversial. Here on Earth, the origins of astrology are in ancient cultures who saw the skies as some sort of reflection of this world (or: this world as reflection of the heavenly unchanging - or hardly changing - world above) and believed in that the events in this world can be explained and predicted by seeing them in the skies. For example, if Jupiter was the star (resp. planet) that was considered to belong to the nation of X, and let's say suddenly it was eclipsed by another planet, the astrologers could proclaim that the nation of X will be facing serious threat in the near future from the nation to which the other planet belonged (this was a very vague example, but I hope you got the point). The interpretations were of many scales, from the global one (as shown above) to the individual one, where later the fates of individual people were predicted from that. After all, it remains till today. The question is, was this used in Middle-Earth? And if it was, then by whom, for what purposes and how would it work? For example one could find it hard to believe the Elves would support astrology: not the ones who were in Valinor, at least, because they would have known that the fate of Middle-Earth lay in something different. Or did it? It would be easy to say that the stars contained some "coded information" about the fate of Arda that was put inside them, and it will be quite easy to come up with it as a superstition among the less educated Men or even wild Elves and it would be, I think, quite easy to believe it. Again, did Tolkien say anything about that?

I am looking forward to seeing any contributions; if any of you come up with any quotes, either from the books or from the Letters and other stuff, that speak more about this matter, it will be most welcome.

I recommend http://www.physics.ccsu.edu/larsen/tolkien.html for further information.
Especially http://www.physics.ccsu.edu/larsen/jrrt.html is quite interesting and provides some good quotes.
Clearly, Tolkien was interested in astronomy and so also used it to create a feeling for the reader that the action takes place in a real place.

And so why wouldn't people in M-e look to the stars as well. Why it is wise men...well simply because some peasant from South Gondor doesn't have the education needed to understand what really happens in the sky. You had to have learned something in Minas Tirith's library or in Rivendell. :D

Now, as far as astrology is concerned...I don't really think so. Of course maybe Malbeth the Seer made his prophecies after consulting the stars, maybe he just took a look at the shape of the clouds and the behavious of chickens as I think the Roman augurs did. As far as I am aware we don't know really.

This however again brings us to that topic I so dislike about providence, fate and luck in M-e. Somehow, it seems however that people there simply had this gift, as Aragorn is said to have gotten it from his mother's side.

So I guess that in Middle-earth prophecies were made without looking at other stuff, but simply be "feeling" wha was going to happen. Maybe some had this power to somehow sense Eru's plan or something like that.

My conclusion: Astronomy - yes, important; Astrology - no, possible

Remember that the Numenoreans and to a lesser extent the Gondorians were great mariners: which implies that astronomy was cultivated for the purpose of navigation. This might conceivably have even included longitude as well as latitude: there are clock-independent ways of calculating long, such as tracking Jupiter's moons, provided you have sufficiently accurate instruments and the tables worked out correctly. Nor I suppose should we discount the possibility that the Numenoreans had developed the marine chronometer, since even the backwards Shire-hobbits had clocks.

Good idea WCH, that would definitely be a good reason.
Again, this goes well with the theory from the site linked above where astronomy is seen as part of the background of the story. The world needs to be feel real, and so to a certain extent (as this still is fantasy) mirror our own.

In The Mariner's Wife Meneldur is said to have spent a lot of time contemplating the heavens (at least until he became king) and gathering information on that subject from the Eldar. I believe he also built a tower expressly for the purpose of star gazing.

I can't recall any references to astrology but the appearance of new lights in the sky was seen as significant, e.g. the appearance of the Gil-Estel shortly before the war that ended the first age. In FotR, in (I think) "The Ring goes South" reference is made to a red star, observed by Frodo, shining brightly in the sky. A reference to Mars perhaps, signifying impending war?

I would agree with that. Though it will be still good to look more on what all could be studied in the skies... for example the problematics of meteorites and similar things (several swords were made of meteoritic iron, as it is mentioned even in the texts you provided links to... anyway, these links are very good, thanks for that, Miggy).

Well, the case of Eärendil surely is not the "normal" astrology, as it was only one rare occassion. Similarly in Frodo's case, I always considered this star rather being there to evoke the image of the Eye of Sauron (it is said there that it seemed to Frodo like an eye), of course I don't think it was THE Eye, but rather Frodo's subconscious stirred after the recent events transformed this star in his mind to the sign of something scary (reminds me of Lovecraft's "Polaris" and things like "What the Moon brings" here - Frodo's state of mind clearly was not perfectly okay at that time).

I'm not suggesting that the appearance of Gil-Estel was "normal" merely that it was thought significant (as it was).

I agree that the comparison of the star to an eye is meant to evoke the image of Sauron's Eye. However, Frodo is actually supposed to be observing a bright red star, one that grows ever brighter and such a symbol has been used to signify times of turmoil. There may not be in Middle Earth a practice of observing the movements of the planets and stars to predict events on a personal level. But odd happenings in the heavens may be taken to predict general events and be seen as signs of hope (Gil-Estel) or war (bright red star).

A "star" that changes in brightness can only be a planet, and the red color would suggest that it is Mars. That would be my assumption at any rate. Yes, it evokes the Eye, but since Middle-earth's stars are otherwise like ours (with the exception of the mythological elements like Eärendil; our "morning star" is normally the planet Venus), the most logical assumption would be that the light's source is from the same stars and planets.

My thinking was that the red "star" is Mars, hence my link between its bright appearance and impending war. If the HP centaurs hade been present in Rivendell at the time they might have told Frodo "Mars is bright tonight". :)

That's true. But what I wanted to say was that it had nothing to do with astrology. It was a message from the Valar, and it did not have anything to do with astrology like that some astrologues in M-E would sit down and say "Eärendil rises in the west and Jupiter is in opposition so that means Morgoth will be overthrown". The question posed was about astrology (and astronomy) and this is not astrology in the way the word is understood here - this was reaction to a special event that happened only once.

Yup, but the question stands like this: can we afford to make such bold assumptions? That was the original question. Frodo simply saw a star and he did not like it, point. I am also inclined to believe it was Mars, but that's another matter. But nothing implies that seeing a red star was taken by the Middle-Eartheans as a sign of war, like the HP centaurs do. The question is not whether centaurs would say that to Frodo, but whether Elves would say that to Frodo.

I wasn't trying to suggest that any of the things I mentioned were astrology in the sense that you seem to be using.
Short point - From what I have read (and subject to correction) there doesn't seem to be clear evidence of astrology in Middle earth.

Astrology and astronomy aren't SO different...

Oh yeah, then - okay. Only since the point was astrology before, I thought you had that in mind (also with all the centaurs things). All right then.

Now probably quite a lot of astronomers - and astrologues maybe as well - would look at you as on a poor uninformed person (in the better case) if you said such a thing in their sight. The origins of both lie in the ancient times and in the same roots, and they were both considered "sciencies" (or so we would say now) at these times; this is also what explains the controversial name of astrology (with the ending -logy we are more used to real "sciencies" like biology and so on, so in fact astronomy should be rather named astrology; yet, in these past times astronomy indeed concerned herself more with naming, catalogizing, observing stellar objects while astrology made "scientifical" conclusions based on the movements of the skies). Yet, and that remains till today, astrology specializes itself on horoscopes and such things, while astronomy is all that has something to do with exploring the space, catalogizing the stars and other object, explaining their movements, "mapping" them - how distant they are, how luminous they are, what is the prognosis of the lifespan of the stars etc. Astrology, as far as I know, does not concern itself with how distant this and this star is or what the surface of this and this planet is like, but only where this planet was when you were born and similar things.

Aren't we far too off topic here?

The question was if they exist in M-e not what they are and I think we have our answer.
Unless, someone has proof that they did make predictions by looking at the stars.

And that is what I am waiting for - if we can find any proof (or I hoped that we could find at least "no" from the Prof in the Letters or something). Or something closer about astronomy. I wouldn't have started the thread in the first place, because I had my own opinion about the matter, yet I wanted to learn if there is anything else.

Well...I think my CRAZY idea that astrology and astronomy are secretly the same thing is relevant to the question, because if I am right, then our question is wrong and we are setting up a false dichotomy.

If we are understanding astrology to mean newspaper horoscopes and petty fortune-telling, then I agree, it's nothing like astronomy. And yet, both things are produced from the same impulse, and have essentially the same purpose. This is more obvious if you are operating in a classical or medieval cosmology (which is the worldview within which Middle-earth exists). Until the rise of modernity, astrology was NOT horoscopes and crystal balls. It was based on the sensible notion that God's sovereign will and reason were reflected in his creation. By observing the movements of the heavenly bodies, a careful, scientifically-minded astrologer could attain a superior knowledge of the way the universe works, and what's going on in it. This is science. Astronomers, until the modern era, WERE astrologers: Ptolemy, the Magi, Pythagoras, Galileo (seriously); and our "astronomy vs. astrology" question is indicative of the same materialism and rationalism that likes to make Galileo a martyr for science who was locked up by the superstitious Church for refusing to compromise his professional, scientific integrity.

So, my point is that in Middle-earth (being a land firmly grounded in a medieval worldview) wise men who studied the stars could be safely called either astrologers or astronomers with equal accuracy.

I apologize, I think I may have just ranted.

Ok, ok, interesting information there, I agree.

But, and this is the crucial point, where is your proof?
You can surely show me some documents that clearly show Galileo was an astrologer as well and I will obviously believe you.
But, what documents can you show me to make me believe Meneldur or anyone else in M-e was an astrologer?
If you can, then awesome!

But I personally doubt there are any. And as there aren't any I see no reason to believe there were astrologers.
I can well imagine that say, Southrons saw some new stars in the sky and said, "Oh, now we will have good crops!". But does Tolkien ever mention it? No.
Which brings me to my earlier point: astrology in M-e is as far as we know not existant, however possible and also plausible.

Proof? Faith is an island in the setting sun, but proof is the bottom line for everyone...no, wait, that's Paul Simon...

I don't really have any textual proof; I've basically made a philosophical argument based on inference. I personally think the line about wise men watching the stars is pretty clear, but I'll see if I can't dig up something more substantial. Something in the letters, or the HoMe, or the Unfinished Tales.

Cheers.

If you read my post, you must know from there that I am aware of this. However, what I think, and in fact, what is the main purpose of this thread to find out, is, whether M-E REALLY saw stars as some kind of things that contain ANY information. Astronomy in M-E: yes, definitely. The people were looking at the skies, naming objects, this one is Nénar and this is Borgil, and the question posed at the very beginning of this thread is whether they also did other things (like looking what trajectory this and this stellar object follows); we agreed upon something. But I was looking for a proof whether astrology was in M-E as well, and that, if you read my posts above, concerns astrology in all that it means. My question was, DID the people in M-E really think this antic and medieval way as you say it? Did they think something about Eru's creation can be deciphered from the stars? "It was based on the sensible notion that God's sovereign will and reason were reflected in his creation," you say, yes, but was this "sensible notion" also in M-E? That is the question and surely you must have noticed I am aware of the fact astrology is not just horoscopes (don't know where you took crystal balls), if you read my posts (at least the opening one).

Crystal balls was hyperbole.

My argument hinges on that last sentence in my great, big, overblown post.

I don't have any evidence. I think that since Middle-earth is written from a worldview which is largely medieval, that it is safe to assume that the inhabitants believed certain things about the heavens, but I can't actually PROVE it...yet. Still working on that...maybe I'll get around to it. :rolleyes:

Well, it is similar, but it is not truly medieval, it is after all fantasy.

Yes, and the relation of the inhabitants of the world towards the Powers/Eru was quite different from the one the ancient/medieval people had to their gods/God, especially concerning the Elves. For the Elves, unless they were specifically instructed by Varda that there is something to discover in the stars, and largely in the world that had close to the West/Elves/Edain, the "learned" world (meaning the world that was getting their knowledge, although passed over several receptors, from the Valar), they would most probably, in my opinion, not perform astrology. Maybe the primitive Men or later the more "barbaric" nations would seek their own way to the Powers and the knowledge of the world through other means, like for example trying to read the information about the world in stars. Since we are not told that Eru or Valar ciphered anything in the stars (or I was hoping to get a knowledge about this through this thread, if Tolkien wrote anywhere that they did, though personally I doubt it), I presume it was not so and thus, astrology would have been just a superstition and therefore, even if some of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth performed it, the Valar would tell the Eldar and the Eldar would tell the Edain and the Edain would pass the knowledge among the other Men, that astrology has no sense in Middle-Earth.

If I was in a mood to have my mind changed, it would be by this bit here. Good argument. :)

Thank you :) And that argument is what all my other thoughts presented in this thread are based on, so if you read them in light of this, you will see what I truly meant.

Well I see we have reached quite a conclusion, so I'll add something I just thought of and that although is not truly this thread's topic is also close to it.

Now, we know that Aragorn went

Clearly it seems that Arda also had two totally distinct hemispheres with different stars on the sky.
The thing in Tolkien's works is that all is quite North-centred and pretty much nothing is said about the South.

In the North stars are used to signal something, for example the Valacirca to be a warning for Melkor and his followers.

My question is simple...was there a reason for stars with a meaning in the South and if so is there any mention of this?

Let me throw in two quotes.

I think these two quotes point towards the existence of (some kind of) astrology.

So, Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. But is there any way in which Saruman would benefit from astronomy? I mean, his main plan for most of his time in Middle-earth was learning about the Ring and then finding it - how could astronomy help him with that? Saruman was a learned man with a variety of scholar interests, of course, but I find it unlikely that he merely watched the stars for leisure.
The Gondorians, then, didn't only watch the stars, but asked questions of them. Especially being named right after "compounding strong elixirs", I don't think Tolkien had a "proper science" in mind when he wrote it.

The way I read both of these, the Gondorians and Saruman were not trying to learn about the stars, but from them, which would point towards some form of astrology. And if there is astrology in these places, then I don't see why the other occurrences of people watching the stars should point exclusively to astronomy.

It is, however, interesting to note that in these more obvious quotes it is people of a doubtful character who practice astrology. It is also interesting to observe that in all occurrences (as far as I'm aware) of "watching the stars" etc. Tolkien does not say what people learned from them, so in case that we do have astrology here, he carefully leaves it open whether it gives valid answers or is a mere superstition.

Great, Mac! That was what I was hoping for all the time! Some real evidence! So it looks like astrology indeed existed in M-E!

Not sure whether we should put Saruman's observing of stars as astrology. We know he did, as I quoted even in my first post, Orthanc was a place where all Men "watched the stars" and Saruman continued in this tradition. I see your points, but I think the fact whether Saruman performed astrology or astronomy depends largely on whether it really worked in M-E or not. The question is, if astrology did not work, why would Saruman, originally a Maia, bother with it? On the other hand, even the Ainur, the more the incarnated ones, did not know everything, and when one could reveal a way how to make super Rings of Power out of some silly metal, why could not someone reveal a way (or be persuaded by a liar that there is a way) to learn something from the stars?

I wish I could say I told you so, but it wasn't me who found the references. I'm too lazy. Good work, Macalaure.

You might also consider, Legate, whether Saruman would have needed to practice astronomy since he was a Maia, and likely already knew everything he needed to know about the locations, movements, etc. of the stars (he was a bit of a knowledge junkie). If true, it makes it all the more likely that what Saruman was doing was astrological in nature (since we are evidently distinguishing between astrology and astronomy:rolleyes::p).

Well, it's possible that in the stars, for those with the knowledge to perceive, was written the Music of the Ainur FAQ. :cool:

If Saruman was not performing astronomy and not necessarily astrology either, what was he doing? Was he looking at the stars of Varda and remembering his time in Valinor with longing? *squeals* Awww, Emo-Saruman! :p ;)

A bit more seriously, it is indeed a good question what was he doing up there. Like Gwath said, he probably knew a lot of the "scientific facts" about space, so he would not need to bother with that. And as to astronomy, can you really picture Saruman at his towers, musing: "So, Éowyn is a Virgo... hmmm... looking at the postion of Mercury, it looks like she'll develop a fatal crush on a Mysterious Stranger... "? ;)

Well, I would not say this is impossible - and I would like to think that at least at the beginning he was like this. For it is said (about all the Istari, that is even Saruman):
But is it necessary that he was not practising astronomy? I also can't think what good it will do to him for his warfare in the later days (except maybe: "Ha ha ha, if I delay the war long enough, this huge asteroid will surely fall on Gondor!"), nevertheless, he was this knowledge-collecting guy (remember he listened for years to Stromo- um, Treebeard :p for years, and surely lot of it was just some rambling about how trees grow!) as you rightly said, and so he surely could want to obtain some knowledge just for the knowledge itself (cf. Goethe's Faust). Anyway, why would he study it even if he already knew - well, what if he didn't know? I'm referring to this:
(which is interestingly the first part of the sentence I quoted above). You see, they had to learn many things again, so why not astronomy, in such a favourable conditions as Orthanc offered?

Yes, what I meant was if he already was familiar with the stars, he wouldn't have needed to practice astronomy. But you make a good point about the post-incarnation relearning process.