The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - At Weathertop, did the Nazgul fear Frodo?

The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php)

- The Books (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9)

- - At Weathertop, did the Nazgul fear Frodo? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1454)

At Weathertop, did the Nazgul fear Frodo?

At Weathertop, did the Nazgul fear Frodo? or in any situation when Frodo held the ruling ring? If not, why not?

I think it is very unlikely that the Nazgul feared Frodo wielding the One Ring. When Frodo put on the ring at Weathertop, he entered their world of shadows, and then they where for the first time able to see him, which made him a easier catch. And, the ring actually wanted the Nazgul to kill Frodo and seize the ring. I dont think they reconned Frodos power enough to command them, in fact i dont think enyone wielding the ring could command the ringwraiths accept sauron. They where somehow under the other nine rings dominion.

It does mention in one of Tolkien's letters that if the Nine had caught up with Frodo at the Cracks of Doom that he would have had some degree of control of the Nazgul, Frodo could at that point have commanded the Nazgul, a command which they would either have obeyed or pretended to obey.

I read elsewhere on this board that if the Nine would have caught up with Frodo, they'd overpower him....

"Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring...But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Rings's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings(which he held) had primary control of their wills..."

But wouldn't simply obeying Frodo create a conflict with their errand? They were ordered to kill/overpower Frodo. I can't think of any minor command (of Frodo) that would not conflict.

Jellinek

As for the original question, I'd say it would be quite laughable if the Nazgul were afraid of Frodo. As it says somewhere in one of the books (can't quite remember which), Sauron is the only one who can wield the ring. He is the Lord of the Ring. Therefore, Frodo can't wield it and the Wraiths would have no reason to fear him. And I agree with Jellinek; what command, even minor, of Frodo's wouldn't have conflicted with Sauron's orders?

he could have ordered them to kill him fast instead of slowly. but they were not afraid of him at weathertop that is clearly shown since they advanced upon him and attacted him.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>It does mention in one of Tolkien's letters that if the Nine had caught up with Frodo at the Cracks of Doom that he would have had some degree of control of the Nazgul, Frodo could at that point have commanded the Nazgul, a command which they would either have obeyed or pretended to obey.</STRONG>

I think they would have only pretended to, till they could get the ring from him. He would not have ordered his own death

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Back to the original question, I think they did actually fear him to some extant. Well, it was actually more of a fear of what he could become. That is why they wished so much to kill him. If Frodo had held the ring, he would have become a slave of the ring. However, he would be more powerful, powerful enough to control any Nazgul or all Nazgul. If they had not feared him, they would have acted less aprehensive.

Quote:

If Frodo had held the ring, he would have become a slave of the ring. However, he would be more powerful, powerful enough to control any Nazgul or all Nazgul.

Actually, (other people correct me if I'm wrong) I'm pretty sure that I read in FotR that Frodo would have become a lesser Wraith; in a way, a slave to the slaves of the Ring, although he also would be a slave to the Ring. It's said in that part where he's waking up in the house of Elrond and speaking to Gandalf, I believe.

EDIT: Wait, nevermind. That's what would have happened if the blade that stabbed him on Weathertop has done its job. But anyway, I'm fairly sure that it was never said straight out that Frodo would become super-powerful if he claimed the Ring for his own. Gandalf said at one point that only Sauron has the power to wield the One Ring. If we go by that, then Frodo shouldn't be able to wield it, and the Nazgul would have absolutely no reason to fear him.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Airetelluma ]

I don't think that Frodo could ever have become powerful enough to truly command the Nazgul. The Nazgul weren't directly enslaved to the One Ring, but to the Nine Rings. And as Sauron held the Nine, Frodo would have had to be able to command Sauron first - and that wasn't going to happen.

The Nazgul could have been intimidated with the One Ring, perhaps, and they might have pretended to obey Frodo's commands, but they wouldn't have been enslaved to Frodo.

A somewhat fuller extraction from the above-cited letter might be helpful:

Quote:

Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?

Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.

Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem 'good' to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself.

The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

The sense I get from the Weathertop scene is not fear but one of "caution". It's understandable that the Nazgul would exercise a certain caution as they approached Frodo. They don't know much about hobbits and he is holding the most concentrated source of power in the land. Imagine a group of police approaching a young child holding a loaded gun. They were intent on capturing the ring from him, but not entirely sure of the situation. He had, after all, already eluded them on several occations and was known to be in the company of a Ranger.

You also have to take into consideration if Galadriel, Gandalf, and Saruman had one ring they would of became the new dark lord of the lands. But they are also immortal spirts and they all share that trait. But I believe if someone like Aragorn or Borimir both being strong men would of weilded it much the same way. Isildur had the ring for two years before it betrayed him. And he was mighty to without the ring, it really doesn't say much of his physical or other states of being, but all would have to of been enhanced by this ring. And eventhough Isildur probably wore it as a necklace he still would of gained some of the positive benifits of the ring. Becuase in ROTK when merely holding the ring in his hand sam was able to scare off the orc. So I believe given enough time the frodo would be able to control the nazgul. But the ring would still have malice toward him and seek to betray him. Because the ring isn't happy until it is on the finger of Sauron.

your right about saurons finger so would the ring let frodo use its power to command the nazgul and overthrow sauron.

I think the in the weathertop situation, the nazgul's concern might not have been too great from fear of the hobbit, per se, but they might realize to an extent that the hobbit held their life in its hands, the bagginses.

I think, however, that later, Frodo's physical size became immaterial in the concern of whether his use of the ring would be sufficiently potent to possibly stay the nazgul. He suffered acutely under the weight of the ring, and it took a heavy toll on his spirit, but my view on it is that that toll was not for nothing- there was power there for him to have if he'd just take it, and the ring would surely give what it could after its last two experiences with hobbit ring bearers. Ambitionless little pests!! But here was a hobbit who had a need, who just wanted it over, who didn't want to bear the ring and watch himself and everyone around him go nuts, so the ring had an angle with this hobbit(more so than with Sam, and I think Frodo's desire would definitely not be power, but peace, happiness, stuff like that-In the holes of Shire, where the plump one dwells-geez, I'm digressing quite a bit.). Surely there was more power than just invisibility and agelessness. Frodo's constant thought is about the ring and what could be done with it, and he asked the right question about it to know enough to use it willfully, and not just automatically like invisibility, provided he could increase his will, and I'd say he had a lot more willpower than Boromir. Am I correct that to use the ring for more than invisibility requires willpower?

Two posts and I'm already babbling. I've got Forumaire's Disease.

Forgot to add one thing.

I think he could've held off the nazgul, as I think the ring had him at the end, and if that were the case, the ring was ready to walk back to the master on hobbit feet, just to scold the nazgul for dropping the ball.

But maybe they'd just kill him and take it themselves. Hard to say.

Quote:

The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'.

Mhoram!? Sound familiar? Sounds like the white-gold syndrome found in the Land. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

-réd

Well put Red! I like your oberservation the best.

I dont understand where the idea that the Nazgul were scared of Frodo comes from, yes they did attack the camp cautiously, but they were afraid of Aragorn and the fire he wielded rather than a terrified 4 foot tall Hobbit.

Actually, I don't think that the Nazgul were afraid of anything.

The Nazgul's chief weapon, Tolkien states, was fear itself. Fear takes time to feel, and grows stronger over time. I think that's why the Nazgul move in slow motion: to let the fear sink in, et the panic build in those that they are stalking.

I think that the Nazgul were stalking Frodo on Weathertop, slowly, slowly, letting the fear build, build, until it peaks in sheer terror.

Same thing at the fords (Book version! Movie version is hardly worth the bother..). Notice how they face off with him, talk to him, steand menacingly in their stirrups, threaten him? Only when he waves his sword at them and defies them, do they begin slowly stalking him anyway. "See, little hobbit, how little affect your words had on our darkness and evil." And sure enough, our singularly brave hobbit keels over at that point, between the knife-tip and his weariness-- and I think, the pressure of the building fear had been the final straw.

Once the Nazgul are airborne, the fear goes far, far ahead of them. Even those on the ground cower in terror as they pass.

mark12_30

I think that perhaps,The Nazgul felt Frodo as an equal power,or greater perhaps.

I believe mark is right, about the nazgûl waiting for the fear to build up. Frodo must have been terrified at Weathertop, one of the reasons that he put on the ring. And like at the ford of Bruinen, at weathertop they attack Frodo when it becomes clear that he resists them, e.g. by calling the name of Elbereth out loud. They realise they can't scare him into giving them the Ring, so they attack to end this.

Why were the ring raiths so incompetent on weathertop? Surely the ringraiths, who struck fear into mighty armies, could handle frodo and the others, even if they had aragorn with them?

o.k, so the story wouldnt really work if frodo died or lost the ring on weathertop, but i think thats what would have happened. As to whether or not they feared frodo - i think they did not. frodo simply carried the ring. he would have needed to know how to harness the power of the ring - something that only sauron knew how to do.

One thing that reduced their power was that they were not all present. Also the fire wielded by Aragorn and the hobbits irritated them, and was something they feared. And maybe when they had hit Frodo with the morgul blade, they retreated, thinking that with enough time Frodo would surrender. Indeed, had Frodo been a man instead of a hobbit, he would not have resisted for so long. And Gandalf tells Frodo, that a few more hours and even Elrond would not have been able to heal him.

They are not as powerful as they seem. Separated, they are not as strong. Also, surrounded by goodness dull them. the hobbits are presented as the most innocent of creatures in middle earth. Thsu, that is why Frodo was able to bear the burden of the ring. Also, i'm sure that they had some fear of frodo, but, their desire to get the ring compelled them forward, and blocked anything else.