who is the best of the valar?
 

i think that it has to be Yavanna, or Elbereth. Yavannas name means "the gift of fruit" and that is exactly what she did! she is definatly the best and kindest, she even tried to revive life into Telperion and Laureling, but the malevolonce of melkor damged them beyond repair! elbereth made the stars. i love stars, they are sooooooo magical and elbereth was the desginer of the heavens! WOW! the men suck compared to them!

Has to be Aule, 'cause he made the Dwarves. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

<center><font color="red">Varda (Elbereth) is definately number one on my list.... probably caus I grew up with the elves and they worship her most. Seeing as she created the stars which were the first things they saw when they awoke, and that she's the Queen of the Valar, its not surprising.

But I love all the Valar.... except Melkor, of course.

I would have to say Varda. She knows about all Ea and "the light of Iluvatar lives still in her face". She aids Manwe and Melkor fears her more than any other! She also is sorta the creator of the Ents!

<center><font color="red">No, its Yavanna who sort of created the ents - She was afraid that the children of illuvatar would destroy the plants so eru created the ents to look after them for her.

But in a way, Varda created the elves because they awoke when she rekindled the stars, and also sortof created men as they awoke when she set Isil and Anar in the heavens.

I don't know if I can single out any of the Valar as the "best", but to me, Elbereth and Tulkas were most endearing. Elbereth...well, you all know why. And Tulkas because I love a fighter with a sense of humour.

I guess I'll have to cast my vote for Ulmo, because of the deep concern he always showed for all of the Children of Iluvatar, even the exiled Noldor.

I take the question in a subjective [who are you most drawn to] and objective [who is the greatest within Ea]

Objectively, I think JRRT leaves no doubt manwe is to be seen as greatest for the simple reason that it is he alone who has recourse to Eru Iluvatar and all of the valar are in authority to Eru through him. In a ideally creative communal way.

subjectively , it depnds on my mood. i love Ulmo's willingness to befriend the eldar even during the Ban,
elbereth's vereration by the Elves is sublime [see thje road goes ever on] Tauron aka Orome is probably my favorite by affinity.

lindil

Definitely Elbereth! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Yavanna a close second, 'cause I'm kinda partial to ents! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Each of the Valar is unique, so it's not a matter of one being more important than the others. They need each other and balance each other with their abilities. Two of the Valier touched my heart when I first read of them: Este (wish I knew how to get the dots on that e!): as the healer of hurts and weariness, rest is her gift. Appropriately, her spouse is Irmo, master of visions and dreams. The Valar come to them for refreshment, repose and easing of the burden of Arda.
Mightier yet is Nienna - though her emphasis on mourning, grief, sorrow and lamentation doesn't sound appealing at first glance, there is much to learn from her: pity, endurance in hope, strength of spirit and wisdom. Sounds like some of LotR's main themes come from her, doesn't it?

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

I don't think any of the Valar deserve the title 'best'.
I'd just like to say that in if I had lived in the mythological world I'd probably revere Ulmo the most because of this unceasing compassion he has for Middle-Earth, Elves and Men.

'Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin' - Unfinished Tales.

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mat_Heathertoes ]

I agree with you Ithilwen. I vote for Ulmo too. I also like Varda, but Ulmo is my favourite.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I would have to say that being an engineer-type, there's a soft spot in my heart for Aule the Smith. But I also enjoy imagining Orome shining in the starlight while riding through the dark forests on Nahar. To be so bold and brave as to ride the unknown forests alone in those dark days, must be a "white knight" thing.

Aule definitely. He was the work-horse of he bunch and made a whole new people that not even Illuvatar percieved. He might have, but he sure did frighten Aule when that poor Valar got caught with his new creation. Most of all his want for power not to control, but just to create.

i'm actually partial to varda myself.....
making the stars, what a wonderful undertaking....
but it is indeed true that one would be hard pressed to find the best of the valar, they all had such great achievements, none of which anyone on ME may have wanted to do without.....

twinkle

Varda and Yavanna are cool, but I've always liked Nessa. I love the whole running through the woods faster than the deer deal. And deer are my fav animals too, so I'm going to be biast and say Nessa is the best in my mind.

I love all Valar, but my fave...gotta be Ulmo! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] He seems..I don´t know, very nice, and fair to the elves.. And oh, I love water..... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I love each one for a different reason.
Manwe: he's the ruler! And he's cool
Valar: She is kind of like the Hera of Middle Earth (except not mean and jealous), and she's beautiful!
Ulmo: sticks around on Middle Earth at all times
Aule: he dared to be different and make the dwarves before Iluvatar gave him permission
Yavanna: she loved Middle Earth, and never forgot about it, even when it was dark
Namo: gotta be cool to keep the houses of the dead!
Vaire: a weaver!!! yay...and she probably has a nice record of all that has happened in her weaving...would love to meet her...
Nami and Irmo: Masters of spirits...gotta love that...'specially when you are mainly spiritist, like I am...they gotta be cool...
Este: she dresses in gray...now that's brave! lol
Nienna: grief...so sad...makes you feel sorry for her...but she brings hope to others, which is great.
Tulkas: sounds so cool...
haha...so cool...
Nessa: runs with the deer and dances...I wanna be her!
Orome: is scary, but cool...his temper *shivers*
Vana: Ever young...don't we all want that? lol
Malkor: *shivers* No...don't like him much. But...you have to give him credit for...something I guess somewhere he did...I can't think of anything right now though.

[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ]

i dont think there is any doubt that melkor is the greatest of all the valar, especially in the beginning. tulkas is pretty much a loud mouth, he talks a lot but doesnt do anything w/o the other valar. one on one melkor would crush tulkas. manwe would be the closest in power to melkor. but by the end of the third age, none of the valar were very great. they did not take an active role in removing sauron from a position of power. i think all of them were pretty pitiful.

they all are Valar so there is nothing more to be said. Valar are those who are good warriors

I don’t think that you could really give the title of “Most Powerful” to any of them. Since each Valar has a special and unique sort of force/power. Power is simply the ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. Or of having great influence or control over others. Plus you also have to ask at what time is this “vote” taken place? If it was before Arda ( during the AINULINDALË) was created then we could easily say, Melkor.

“Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar.”

“Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.”

“Yet so great was the power of his(Melkor) uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth.”

I believe at this time and before “The Children of Ilúvatar” had been brought forth, that Melkor was the “strongest in power”. It is seen in the early wars between Melkor and the other Valar. Where mountains are raised and then crumpled. The Earth shakes with their tremendous power.

“Among them(14 original Valar{Melkor is excludind}) Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë. Though Manwë is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä.”

Now, we could go on and on, about he is more powerful, she did this, and he created that. But it wouldn’t get us anywhere. Read the “VALAQUENTA” to see their “powers” in the lore of the Noldar.

“Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren, fearing no evil, and because of the light of Illuin they did not perceive the shadow in the north that was cast from afar by Melkor;”

Now, Melkor “feared” almost anything and everything. He feared the other Valar(almost each one for different reasons), he feared the Light, he feared the Children of Ilúvatar(Mostly the sons of Finwe and Feanor’s Family), he only was master because he put fear in his servents. The other Valar only feared what harm might be done of others and/or unpleasing their father. Aule fearing that the other Valar might be mad at his creation. Yavanna being afraid of the defenceless things in the wood (So came the Ents, which Eru created after Yavanna, asked Manwe). They did not fear Melkor, nor his power, but they feared what he would do with his power. How he would corrupt the world and its inhabitants. Even of all the Maiar he tricked or persuaded into his power, he still feared.

But Melkor lost much of his powers later on, and relied more on his treachery and servants then his own power. Even early on as in the “Coming of the Sun and Moon”.

“Having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds. With shadows he hid himself and his servants from Arien, the glance of whose eyes they could not long endure; and the lands near his dwelling were shrouded in fumes and great clouds.”

After this occurs , Manwe definitely reigns as Master of Arda. So says Eru.

[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

In my opinion Varda,Melian and Manwe are the best they all seem well wise and beautiful... mailto:earendel1@lycos.comearendel1@lycos.com</A>

Varda/Elbereth is my favourite Vala, because she made the stars, and I love night-time and stars. Also because the Elves revere her, and Elves are cool. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I also like Vana, because I love flowers.

Elbereth is definitly cool I love stars and all and the elves certainly like her.
But Ulmo is absolutly my favorite! Fact nothing can live totaly without water.
Fact you havent seen a night sky till you've seen it at see. And I love the way he always helped the Noldor even in exile.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Lilly Loamsdown

i don't think one can judge, they all apply their different skills to the creation and safe keeping of middle earth/ aman

Ziffy...change is bad

[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Merendis ]

Nienna...for reasons mentioned by others, and more [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Elbereth/Varda--anyone who is a Starkindler is alright in my book. And when elves or hobbits are in a jam, who else do they call on first for help? I sometimes wonder what was unique about Varda to make Melkor so very fearful of her. I don't know the answer, but the fact that she had that impact on Melkor makes me even more sympathetic to her. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

My Dear Dear Merendis, what do you mean?

Just for the record:
hom·o·phone (there's no 'b') n. One of two or more words, such as night and knight, that are pronounced the same but differ in meaning, origin, and sometimes spelling.

doesn't it feel good to be taught be your 'youngers'

Im glad to be taught by such a consummate demagogue.

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/mdrbig.gif

I love that signature Ziffy, it's one of my favorite quotes by the professor. I always use that quote whenever there is a discussion about the contributions of Tolkien's works to literature.

A Elbereth Gilthoniel
silivren penna miriel
o menel algar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-diriel
o galadhremmin ennorath
Fanulios, le linnathon
Nef aear, si nef aearon!
i think that pretty much speaks for itself there. Elbereth made the stars, and i love the night.

I have not found anyone in favour of Tulkas.
Is it beacuse I have missed somebody's post?
Or do you not deem him to be a Vala?
Although he is not the mightiest, he is by far the coolest!
He wants nothing else but to beat up Melkor and chain him up like the dog he is. Tulkas laughs in the face of Melkor, and wrestles with him. And he is one of the Valar, who encourages to fight Melkor, not to stay in Valinor and let him get away with his evil schemes. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

it depends.

Obviously the Aratar: Manwe, Varda, Yavanna, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Nienna and Ulmo are above the rest.

Tulkas is the strongest, but his powers and specially his winsdom is behind the others.

Manwe is said to be the one who knows Iluvatar's thoughts better, and Ulmo just a little less, followed by Aule, Orome and Mandos, in that order, then Irmo (Lorien) and Tulkas.

The Valier are in this order: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Vaire, Este, Vana, Nessa.

There is not a comprarisson between Valar and Valier, it's not said if Varda is more or less powerful than Manwe but she is put behind him.

However, Varda is said to the the one with the better foresight as she remembers the music of the Ainunindale better than all theh others, including Manwe.

And it's true that she is the most feared by Melkor, but I think it's mostly because Varda isn't as naive as Manwe.

Neither Varda, nor Yavanna created the ents, the ents were created by Eru at Yavanna's request, the only of the Valar that created living things (with intelligence) was Aule, and he got the bless of Iluvatar.

Seems the question is easy enough...

Manwe. If Manwe was not the best, I don't believe Eru would have given him the power/title that he did. Couldn't have been coincidence.

I think I'll put forth Morgoth - if it weren't for his independent thinking concerning the music of Eru, we might never have had the wonderful stories found in the writings of JRRT! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I answered this post once before, but I am reading the Silm and one of the Valar is definitely growing on me. That is Ulmo.

He is the one who never deserted us here in Middle-earth. Wherever a spring or stream exists, there is Ulmo. Even in Mordor, when Frodo and Sam struggled on without hope, there was a point where the Shadow lifted a bit and they found a little pool of water to strengthen their bodies and hearts.

We can go to the ocean--I live near the Gulf-- and listen to the magic sounds. It reminds us of the original music of Creation and also of the pull of the Sea and the West. Long before, I ever read Tolkien, I could sense that in the waves. So Ulmo is closer to us than the other powers.

So Ulmo gets my vote as the Valar who is the best for me as part of the human race, and Varda as the Valier.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit
[img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]