From the Enemy's Eyes-Rohirrim Charge on Helm's Deep/Pellenor
 

How would you, as the commander of the Uruk-Hai/Mordor Orcs, have chosen to combat the fearsome onset of the horsed Rohirrim at the battles of Helm's Deep and the Pellenor Fields?

Well, there's always that tried-and-true method: turn tail and run into the enchanted forest that's going to eat you.

Come on. You've got a blonde guy on a horse screaming "Guthwine! Guthwine!" and brandishing a gigantic sword named precisely that, some old white-haired guy flashing beams of light from the end of a long stick (and wiping out fifteen orcs with one swift stroke of his own sword), and thirty million kajillion fazillion guys on horses racing down an hill screaming, with light beaming from behind their heads. Speaking of which, does anybody happen to know (offhand) the inertia of a Rohirrim rider and his horse if they race down an eighty-degree slope at ninety kilometres an hour?

Anyway, if I was one of them there Uruks, I'd totally run. Not necessarily into Fangorn, mind you... =D

That one made me laugh out loud, but seriously, an entire army cannot simply turn tail and run, it would cause a serious traffic jam to say the least-even an unplanned turn-and-run retreat is a hard military manuever to complete, so to pull off such a manuever with thousands of fully armed Uruk-Hai in any kind of military order would be difficult. In all seriousness, if you to fight, how would you combat such a charge?

At Helms Deep, I would suggest shooting arrows really fast, then attempting to get the the solgiers furthest away from the Rohirrim to retreat. Elevation above the horses would be nice to. Thats how I'd handle it.

I agree with you to a degree, the firing of arrows to cause disorder and disrupt the charge slightly may indeed work, but bear in mind that orcs use crossbows, which take long to load and longer if you have enormous war horses bearing down on you. In this manner, Uruk-Hai may be able to fire one massed volley before the horses hit the front line. Still, not a bad strategy at all, especiialy of it causes the front line horses to turn about in pain/confusion and disrupt the charge.

Also, remember that retreat would be difficult in such a little amount of time.

I think that the pikes the orcs had were a good defense against the Riders, especially in the situation at Helm's Deep, and should have wreaked much more havoc than they did. To combat a sword, you need something longer, and since the horses were not armored, killing them certainly had first priority and should have been more effective than it actually was.

The horse charge at Helm's Deep should have been easily defeated, or at least slowed - this scene was a bit unrealistic, but it's PJ.

The orcs had pikes and could have used them more effectively. The horses, coming down the slope, would not have been able to manuever around the defense well, and if the first wave of horses could be checked, those following would have slammed into the first wave, wrecking more havoc.

Also I would have had the crossbowers shoot into the charge, again fouling the attack. Unlike the charge on the Pelennor Fields, the Rohirrim were attacking on a narrow front. A few dead horses tumbling down the slope would have hindered the Riders.

Gandalf, of course, is a completely different matter. Assuming that you do not have access to a powered-up Witch-King ;) , the next best thing would be to go after Shadowfax. At least Gandalf unhorsed would be a little easier to deal with.

What didn't make a lot of sense was the orcs fleeing from the sunrise/Gandalf's magical Flashlight of Doom. Weren't these the same soldiers that marched etc by day and night?

Pull a Braveheart, eh Estelyn? That'll do.

Ah but these horses were travelling down a hill (correct me if I'm wrong there that's just how I saw it) at a pretty fast speed so even if the pikes did get them there was no chance that they could just stop. Also, the arrow bits in that scene looked a little unrealistic because of the suddenness with which they stop the horses.

Not only that, but remember that (especially in the movie version) the riders have not only the height given by riding on horseback, but also the higher ground they are charging from, increasing the speed of the horse and therefore the power of the charge. Think About it- even a stabbed horse, unless run throgh from end to end, will most likely go wwith gravity and fall foward, trampling the first line in much the same way that Theoden was eventually killed, so while pikes may be the most effective avaliable defense in Helms Deep, they still may not work. What does anyone think about siege weapons in this situation? the Uruks still had them...

Another point I wanted to make, strategies for defense against the Rohirrim charge of Helm's Deep and Pellonor should be different, please keep that in mind.

Of course, they would have to be different. Silly orcs probably used the same tactics, and that's why they got just as badly slaughtered at the Pelennor as they did at Helm's Deep. After all, first they see that crazy horseman Eomer screaming "Guthwine! Guthwine!", and they get all confused and think Is it just me, or is this deja vu all over again?

I kinda saw the difference between those two battles--Pelennor and Helm's Deep--as the difference between the Irish Wall (Fredericksburg) and Pickett's Charge (Gettysburg), for those of you who know any details about the American Civil War. At FB, a bunch of Yanks march up the field for about a mile, getting shot and wiped out, while they try and try and try to take a wall covered with Rebs. Then two years later, at GB, a bunch of Rebs march up a different field for about a mile, getting shot and wiped out, while they try and try and try to take a wall covered with Yanks.
So, in comparison--those Uruks march to Helm's Deep, kick some tail at a fortress that's supposed to be unstoppable, and get wiped out from behind just as they get ahead by the cavalry. Then again at the Pelennor, they kick some tail at a fortress that's supposed to be unstoppable, and get wiped out from behind just as they get ahead by the cavalry. YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE LEARNED BETTER, THE ZARKING FOOLS!!

I'm sorry, was that annoying and pointless? I think it was. =D
I'm going to another thread now. Sorry 'bout that, Warbringer and friends.

Actually, that made a good deal of sense, and I do see a parallel. Good Job!!! Also, what does everyone think about the use of siege weapons (i.e. catapults) to disrupt such a charge?

At Helm's Deep I'm not sure there was much they could do, as Gandalf seemed to pretty much destroy any morale they had by arriving with Eomer and co., and his supernatural dawn (and gravity defying, Man From Snowy River ability to go straight down cliffs ;) ).


I thought their strategy at Pellenor was about right, but then I'm not an expert.
:)



ttbk

I am loving that reference, kid. I may not stop laughing for awhile....anyway, does no one see the wisdom of using siege weapons?

:D I didn't notice it on my first viewing, but I nearly giggled on the second...


As to siege weapons, at Pellenor they wouldn't have time to put them in place since the Rohhirrm come out of nowhere, and while I can see how you would use catapults, I'm not sure how effective they'd be against a moving target.


ttbk

Siege Weapons against a horse charge...I don't think that would work too well. The accuracy would be greatly diminished and the rate of fire is too slow. If the Orcs had sufficient time and warning they could have dug ditches with pikes to slow them down and in the meantime taken out more of them with arrows. However that would require knowledge of the riders charging and from which direction they are coming both large problems but if they were truly prepared they would have taken the threat of the horsemen into their councils.

It just came to my mind of another possibility derived from the mumakil attack in the movie. If you were able to string some heavy gauged barbed wire that wouldn't give and break and the first onset would really slow them down...again problems are there but it's a possibility as well.

I've been thinking a lot about this one this afternoon. I've read a few books in the Sharpe series by Bernard Cornwell. Sharpe being a rifleman during the Napoleonic wars (played by Sean Bean in the TV adaptation). Whenever Sharpe and his riflemen and Red jackets came across enemy cavalry they would form what is called a hollow square. Which would be three men deep, with the first rank presenting bayonnets allowing the two ranks behind them to fire off volleys at the call of the commanding officer. According to the books, the hollow square was nigh on impossible for a cavalry to break.

However, our poor Uruk-Hai and Orcs were faced with a massive and very sudden challenge. It is unlikely that they would have been able to form squares in such a quick time and they didn't seem to have the command stucture there to have put out the orders. Plus, their shear number would have made this hard to organise and achieve.

Also it seems that the Rohirrim could ride through anything! Esp at Helms Deep. I personally find it hard to believe that horses would run straight into so many spear or pikes like they do and come off on top. Artistic licence I guess!

That sounds very interesting and effective, you'll have to give me the information for that series...

On another note, I was referring to the use of a weapon such as a catapult to disrupt the charge. Imagine a huge rock landing right in the center of a horse charge down a narrow slope. It would completely halt the center charge. Just a thought...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...238721-8922813

The above is a link to most of the books in the Sharpe series. Sharpe's Eagle is a good one to start with as it was the first written (but not the first chronogically).

I think a weapon such as a catapult could have been useful in disrupting the charges we see in the film. They would have to be very large and quick to reload to make a big difference though. I imagine that the horsemen would be able to see these weapons being fired and have time to react to them. It would however ruin the desired effect of the charge.

IF, you were able to get the catapult aimed at the charge and it is on a narrow path/slope whatever, than it would definately disrupt the charge. I just don't see that happening very well though. Again the rate of fire would only allow one shot to be placed but if you could do it just right it would be great. Multiple catapults launched at a larged charge with multiple volleys of arrow would be a bit different but each catapult again would only get one shot and the aim would need to be on.

Arrows aimed at horses would be your best quick defense which is obviously what the orcs needed in this situation.

yes, but the catapults do not need to be aimed, as you wouldnt be aiming at a specific target, both rather a mass of horseman. And trust me, as one who has studied such matter extensively, it doesnt take many catapults firing once to cause a whole lot of damage on pretty much anything they aim at.

I guess what I mean is that the catapult, in this case, would have been facing helms deep or Gondor, and the Rohirrim charged from the opposite way that they were facing. So they would quickly need to change direction and get some sort of accuracy to have any effect.

That is a good point, but with a few dozen Uruk-Hai to move one, it shouldn't be a problem. If the orcs could react very quickly, they could plant several spears in the ground in a line, and then pick off stragglers with bows, but they would need to react very quickly.

Agreed. In theory it could pull off but as stated it would need to be quick and accurate but if they responded quickly they could pull it off. They off course would need to be well disciplined. Now I believe that Uruks are a more disciplined fighting unit than regular orcs so with those it could be possible, however with just orcs I don't see the strict regiment to accomplish the feat.

I don't think it's a sure fire method to halt the attack but yes if all those conditions were met than I could say that it could be rather effective to fire a catapult into the chargers.

The orcs might not have been as well regimented as the Uruk Hai but they were still well ordered with leaders and sub leaders (e.g. orc who looks like foam as main leader and then orc with two head that says "Catapaults!"). Also when the camera angle was from above you could see that they were arranged in pretty organised rows and columns. Then you have their secret attack on Osgiliath - all of which gives the impression that they could have developed a counter-attack against the Rohirrim without too much trouble.

I think the problem was the sunlight, the Uruk Hai should really have been able to withstand that as that was a mahor thing in their design, but the normal orcs have always avoided sunlight and so it is understandable that they were overwhelmed by it.

I have not checked thoroughly, so perhaps someone may have said this, but again, if time allowed, the use of pitfalls would be effective. Also, although gruesome, a wall of human bodies ( :eek: would discourage an attack (imagine charging into a battle and seeing your closest friends headless and heaped up!) and provide an obvious barrier to the charge.