The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - Minor details and other books (or "I think I've seen this before...")

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Minor details and other books (or "I think I've seen this before...")

I've been wanting to start this thread for the longest time but haven't found the courage nor the confidence to do so...*sheepish grin*

I have read Dante's Inferno for my English class and, in my amazement, there were two things that are in some way similar to some things else that I have read in LotR. In the book's Canto IV, there was mentioned "a Citadel with seven towering battlements." Translator John Ciardi offered an interpretation that this Citadel represented philosophy; that is, Human Reason without the light of God. The Citadel was found somewhere near the Limbo, the place where Virtuous Pagans and Unbaptized Children were situated. These people were not at all very sinful, but they were not cleansed of the Original Sin born by all from Adam and Eve's fall...and thus they were given no place in Heaven.

Now what does the Citadel remind you of? Minas Tirith! And the people of the City were known to be learned in lore, some in healing, still others in something else...all definitely using their human reason. But I was not able to find any connection to the "without the light of God" part. Unless they have forgotten Eru in the Third Age! (But then, that's another story...)

Another one is found in Canto VII, which tells of the punishment for the Sullen: they were found beneath the marsh of Styx (I guess not to be confused with the river in Greek mythology). How about the Dead Marshes? That has been the final resting place of "Elves and Men and Orcses," as Gollum had said, when a great battle happened long ago.

The idea is that we find minor details in Tolkien's books that are closely similar to something we have read in other books, or vice versa. Please bear in mind that this thread is not supposed to be a list; discussions of discoveries are highly encouraged, if not required. As for my examples above, any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks a lot, everyone. :)

Interesting ideas Lhun

I think a lot of the things we find in Mythology as well have some resemblance to events, people, or places in LOTR.

There's this one Baltic Myhology story of two wizards battling it out. One was referred to as the "wicked wizard," the other the "good wizard." Even some of their powers resembled Gandalf and Saruman. They could gather storms, or make everything "darken." Also, they could grow taller, or atleast appear to grow taller, as Gandalf does to Bilbo. Now these wizards duked it out to the death, something that didn't happen in LOTR, and Gandalf and Saruman most likely didn't have a wizarding battle of karblasto beams like PJ showed ;) .

Interesting topic!

The battle between Gandalf and the balrog has a striking resemblance to some old paintings in my church of St. Michael battling the dragon. I think Boromir hit on the nose saying that LotR mirrors mythology, as it is the mythology/history of a fictional world. In modern literature (if you can call any modern books "literature"), there are many, many similarities to the LotR due to the fact that it was such a cornerstone in literature. To make sure that this doesn't turn into a thread listing examples LotR being copyied, you should limit it to a pre-Tolkien timeframe. But that's your call, Lhunardawen. :)

Haven't been too terribly active in recent months; my honors thesis and other schoolwork has been taking up a lot of my spare time!

Lhunardawen said:

Quote:

Now what does the Citadel remind you of? Minas Tirith! And the people of the City were known to be learned in lore, some in healing, still others in something else...all definitely using their human reason. But I was not able to find any connection to the "without the light of God" part. Unless they have forgotten Eru in the Third Age! (But then, that's another story...)

I think I could find a connection with the "without the light of God" part. According to Tom Shippey (in The Road to Middle-earth: How J.R.R. Tolkien Created a New Mythology), Tolkien was fascinated by the idea of virtuous pagans:

Quote:

Tolkien did not believe in 'old religions' or 'witch-cults'; C.S. Lewis wrote a paper called 'The Anthropological Approach' which damned the learned variety of that error beyond redemption. Probably a major cause for their intolerance was that both, but especially Tolkien, had some idea of what genuine old paganism was like....Tolkien had grounds to suspect simple views of 'the noble pagan'.

Shippey goes further on to say,

Quote:

Above all, to Tolkien's mind, there must have been present the problem of Beowulf. This is certainly the work of a Christian writing after the conversion of England. However, the author got through 3182 lines without mentioning Christ, or salvation, and yet without saying specifically that his heroes, including the kind and honest figure of Beowulf himself, were damned--though he must have known that historically and in reality there were all pagans, ignorant even of the name of Christ. ... The Beowulf-poet's dilemma was also Tolkien's. His whole professional life brought him into contact with the stories of pagan heroes, Englishmen or Norsemen or Goths; more than anyone he could appreciate their sterling qualities. At the same time he had no doubt that paganism itself was weak and cruel. .... The Lord of the Rings is quite clearly, then, a story of virtuous pagans in the darkest of dark pasts, before all but the faintest premonitions of dawn and revelation.

(All of these quotes are taken from Tom Shippey's book, Chapter Six, "When All Our Fathers Worshipped Stocks and Stones," pages 198-199.)

Hopefully I've gotten my point across without rambling. Does anyone think I'm on to something?

Minas Tirith would definitely seem to be a place that highly values human reasoning, and is quite beautiful. It is imbued with the sense of the power human accomplishment and knowledge. But all the palantri, battlements and learning could not save it from darkness. Providence intervened in the simple act of a hobbit stumbling across a ring in the dark, and though the chain of events that sparked, the city was eventually saved.

I can easily see Minas Tirith in Dante's tower.

I just read this passage from George Orwell's 1984, and it has caught my attention.

Quote:

He picked up the children's history book and looked at the picture of Big Brother which formed its frontpiece. The hypnotic eyes gazed into his own. It was as thought some huge force were pressing down upon you--something that penetrated inside your skull, battering against your brain frightening you out of your beliefs, persuading you, almost, to deny the evidence of your senses.

Reminds me of the The Ring and the Eye of Sauron.
The Mirror of Galadriel

Quote:

But he also knew that it could not see him--not yet, not unless he willed it. The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy, heavier than a great stone, and his head was dragged downwards.

Wasn't it in The Song of Roland that Roland the hero blows his horn to draw aid-- and then dies? The difference is that instead of from Arrows (If I remember) it was from blowing the horn so hard that he burst his veins. Anyway Roland and his horn reminded me of Boromir and his horn.

The seven walls of Constantinople always reminded me of Minas Tirith. It's also close to the water.

I'll add other things as I remember them... but I remember often during world history, thinking, "Hey, did they steal that from the Lord of the Rings?" I knew the difference, really! But it SEEMED that way sometimes.