Why there were no women in the fellowship
 

Hi I don't know if this has already been done but I was wondering the other day why Tolkien made the fellowship be all guys.

At first I thought ok maybe in his time women weren't meant to fight but as I thought about it more I came up with another reason reply and let me know what you think.

I think the reason tolkien didn't put any women in the fellowship is because it might have lead to problems within the fellowship itself (and I'm not being sexist I'm a girl). I mean if you think about it 9 guys would probably do better than if you had 8 guys and 1 woman or 7 guys and 2 women I think it might have created problem's and I did say might I mean guys travelling for so many months with one or 2 women I think emotions would have been strong for each other and a girl being their might have created rivelry and issues anyway that's just what I think. Reply and let me know what you think :D .

Lothlorien :D

I like you point but...
 

Good point however i believe that tolkien didnt add women in the fellowship because then when time came around for eowyn to fight it would have less signifigance

Back to your point, i could definitly see boromir (compulsive as he is) having trouble with that but Aragorn has Arwen the hobbits (exept mabye merry and pippin) are pretty modest and gandalf is an istari and does not take part of worldly pleasures, oh and gimli and legolas arent really that type.

even though i say this i llike you thread

~landis~

(oh im a guy and am not trying to be sexist either(-;)

Although I hate to say it, I must: Middle-earth is primarily a man's world. This is not to say that there is an absence of strong female characters, because there certainly are Middle-earth women with strength and power. The most notable of these are Eowyn and Galadriel, but there are examples found in the Silmarillion, too. Still, it is the men who go off to war, not the women -- except Eowyn, of course, but if she had gone undisguised she certainly would have been turned straight around and sent back to her people.

I don't think there would be any competition in the Fellowship for a woman, pretty much for the reasons lotrfreak90 gave. The only thing I disagree with in what he said is about Boromir, because it is stated that he is more interested in warfare than women.

Plus, if you think about it logically, when the Fellowship was created they had to select from the people they had in Rivendell. I don't think there were any female elven warriors around! :)

Of course, if Lobelia had gone instead of Sam she wouldn't
have put up with any guff from Gollum. :)

And come to think of it, Sauron missed a move, not giving one
of the rings to Queen Beruthiel. :D But then, maybe Sauron
wasn't a cat person.

[QUOTE=Tuor of Gondolin]Of course, if Lobelia had gone instead of Sam she wouldn't
have put up with any guff from Gollum. :)

Too right I wouldn't! That Frodo is such a nice boy, not like his uncle Bilbo who kept avoiding me ... I would have looked after him and hit the King of the Ringwraiths on the head with my umbrella (sorry, Eowyn).

Oh, well. Men and male Hobbits, not to mention Oxford academics, like their boys' clubs, don't they? Guess I'll just have to stick to fighting off Sharkey's men at home. :)

Lol! Plus, at the time setting, womans sufferage was nonexsistant, so it would make sense it Tolkien kept the setting of Middle Earth parallel with the time period of the world at that time!

You guys kinda got off topic

oh, Encaitare

in the council of elrond, correct me if im wrong my memories a little fuzzy, but wasnt arwen part of the council and if not she still could have been a capable candidate!

I don't have my books with me, but I don't think arwen was a part of the council. Besides, I don't think that Arwen would've been a candidate, not unless we're talking about the movie here ;). First of all, she wasn't (from what I could tell) a fighter in the books, the 'women-warrior' role was left up to Eowyn. Secondly, Elrond would never have sent his daughter on the quest, & he was the one doing the picking :).

p.s. I don't think Boromir would've had any problems, he was
so into fighting & gaining glory through victory that he probably
rarely gave women a second thought (yeah, he's wierd :p).

Took the words right out of my mouth, Estel. We must indeed keep in mind that book-Arwen was not the fighting type. Plus, Aragorn never would have allowed her to come, anyway, knowing the risks they faced.

Aren't cats supposed to have come from Mordor? I can't back that, but I know I saw it on a thread not long ago. But Queen Beruthiel with a ring would have been quite formidable.

Arwen was part of the council. In fact she was sitting right next to her father and brothers. Perhaps Sir Tolkien thought that a woman in the fellowship would possibly complicate things. As a woman I know we can mess with a man's sometimes sensible head (one of our many gifts....Mwa ha ha haaa).

I just rechecked "The Council of Elrond" to be sure - no, Arwen was not at the council, but only at the festivities on the preceding evening. Just wanting to make sure Tolkien and Mirth don't get mixed up more than necessary... ;)

I don't even think that Elladan and Elrohir .... who would have been much better candidates were there. But for plot reasons, I think having a powerful elf-lord would have unbalanced the fellowship...

sorry Telcontar my mistake. I remembered reading about her sitting beside her father but that was in the Hall of Fire not in the council.....I am ashamed.

I always thought it was all guys because they needed a small amount of people that could take care of themselves against anything they were going to meet between Rivendell and Mordor. That is why they picked wise and powerful men people like Gandalf, Arargorn etc. There doesn't seem to be many girls to pick. Besides Arwen which has already been said wasn't the warrior type. Maybe there just wern't any female canidates available.

And now for something completely different.......

Well, since this forum says:
"Middle-earth Mirth Fun and friendly TOLKIEN and MIDDLE-EARTH topics that are more comical than informational."

How about, in the spirit of a past PBS tv special featuring an all-girl band
performing "Pretty Woman", an all-girl Fellowship of:

1---Lobelia (the ringbearer)
2---Rosie Cotton
3---Esmeralda Brandybuck
4---Farmer Maggot's wife
5---Goldberry (the wizardish one of this Fellowship)
(An, unconfirmed, rumor has it the list below is from a rejected version of LOTR, yet to be published by Christopher Tolkien).

As Faramir and Boromir are telling the Steward about their dreams and
arguing over who goes Ioreth buts in with some arcane observations about
dream interpretation, etc. Denethor says "Good grief! Not again." A lightbulb
goes on over the heads of Faramir and Denethor, and eventually (dimly) over
Boromir. So:
6---Ioreth. She naturally stops off in Edoras and can't keep her quest secret,
7---Eowyn says "Cool!" :cool: and joins.
Meanwhile, utilizing PJ's esp concept of elf communication:
8---Galadriel finds out about the meeting, goes up and joins (like sonny is going
to turn her down?)
9---XenaArwen finds out what's happening, is worried about her Kermie (I
mean Aragorn) being picked on by Sauron, so, being a N.E.P. (Noldorin Elf Princess) she gets daddy to let her go along.

I guess I shouldn't go into detail about Ioreth being captured by Saruman's
orcs and Sauman telling Wormtongue "Put her on the rack! And if that
doesn't work she'll have to stay in the Comfy Chair until teatime."
"Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!" [maniacal laughter].

Okay, I suppose it's a good thing JRRT did revise his work a lot.
Although, say what you will, the above at least gets Ioreth out of the
Coronation scene.

Poor Ioreth! The hands of a King may be the hands of a Healer, but when Aragorn/Elessar showed up she was out of a job! Who can blame her for trying to show off what she knew? She was only trying to keep from being downsized, outsourced, or otherwise put out on the winding street!

thanks for replying
 

Hi thanks for the input everyone you've all got interesting oppinon's hee :p and um I don't know who you said should've went instead of Sam but um good sujestion anyway seeya.

Lothlorien ;)

"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor..." ~J.R.R Tolkien, Letters #219

How about one of Pippin's sisters for the fourth hobbit? (Pearl, Pimpernel, or Pervinca)

I don't think this is why Tolkien excluded females from the Fellowship, but it's a darn good reason anyway. At regular points in the journey, the females would be *coughcough* indisposed. And believe me, it sucks to be out camping and trudging when you're *coughcough* indisposed. So, even if any women had the opportunity to go, I don't think they would choose to.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

:D I believe that's what many of us were thinking, but no one wanted to come out and say it. So well done you! I can just see the annoying Mary-Sue whinging to the Fellowship... "No, really, guys, I need to stop! Please! I'm in a lot of pain and discomfort right now!" And since she's an annoying MS no one bothers to pay any attention to her. Ouch.

Thanks for providing the quote regarding cats, also.

Can it not work the other way round?

But, not to stray (or to stray just a little bit):

I consider myself a resonable merman. I set certain rules, and I expect those rules to be obeyed ~ King Triton to his daughter, The Little Mermaid.

The Midde-Earth [Free People] societies simply do not allow for such a thing. There are roles, yer honours, and there are certain rules. See also The Role of Women in The Lord of the Rings

Oh, look, everyone knows that since Eve ate apples, women cannot be trusted. And it's got nothing to do with duplicity. It's that servient, helpmeet instinct coupled with (yes, coupled ;) ) their gift to be receptive and stimulated by males. They would probably have been so desirous to be sympathetic and understanding not only to Gollem but to Saruman and even Sauron as well that, well, they would have been sucked in just like Saruman was by his desire for knowledge.

*coughs*

I sense that you are a fan of "The Little Mermaid," HI, or at least know it rather well... first the Flounder reference in the CbC thread, and now the one above... :)

The point you made was quite true, though. Although Middle-earth has a full share of strong women, they are generally not warriors (Eowyn being the exception). Since the Fellowship was supposed to be kept small, it would have been impossible to take along someone who wasn't able to give their all to the Quest or prove the most useful.

I don't know about these arguments that hold that women were excluded because of an unfortunate lack of warrior-princess-ness or even because of their moon cycles. Every member of the Fellowship was imperfect, and each gave to it according to his ability. The hobbits, for example, had to be carried down the mountain when the snow was too deep for them, and they made up 44% of the Fellowship. Their journey to Rivendell also was not exactly an advertisement for their worldliness or discretion. And they're not the only ones who don't always seem to be assets to the strength of the group.

Dwarves don't ride well, Elves have no stomach for caves, and the Gondorian never even said he was along for the whole journey. I don't think the Fellowship was ever about usefulness--I think it was symbolic, made up of all the Free Peoples (except Ents, evidently), and the number nine was arbitrarily chosen not for any practical purpose but to set Nine Walkers against Nine Riders. I really think that the purpose of the Fellowship was to show solidarity among the many races of Middle-Earth, to make a highly symbolic move against the Enemy, and only incidentally to help Frodo. Everyone knew that it would eventually come down to a hobbit, standing alone at the Sammath Naur, and that were he accompanied by a whole army the end of the journey would be the same.

Oh I don't know. A female member of the Fellowship would have been very useful when it came to cooking and washing travel-stained clothes. They would have been well advised to keep the map away from her, though.

*Ducks flying rolling-pins and assorted culinary equipment*

:p :D

Culinary equipment? Many of us long ago gave up believing that the quickest route to a man's heart is through his stomach - straight through the ribs with a very sharp knife (and I am thinking of daggers rather than Sabatiers)is much more direct. Maybe the attraction of Aragorn for Arwen was the fact that here clearly is a man who would be undemanding in the housework department - largely because he lived in a hedge for preference. Possibly nature compensated Elves for their powerful senses of sight and hearing by leaving them seriously deficient in the olofactory department.

As for those of my own gender who claim that women didn't go on the quest because they menstruate - well you clearly didn't have the same variety of PE teachers as I did. Those slightly butch hags would insist that lots of fresh air and exercise were just the thing ... ok so my own approach favours hotwater bottles, and ibuprofen and alcohol - but it is a bit of a wimp-out. Just tough it out - I bet Eowyn wouldn't have not joined the ride of the Rohirrim because it was a bad time of the month. Anyway I am sure that elf women don't get cramps - I mean they wouldn't would they? They would be like the happy, smiley females in Tampax commercials - not as normal women who are more interested in finding someone whose throat they can rip out, than skateboarding.

But the real reason there were no women is because they would have got fed up with the typically male procedure for organising the quest (cf Judith in "The Life of Brian who so unreasonably wants them to do something about Brian immediately - since he is being crucified NOW- without all the committee meetings, discussions, resolutions and planning). They would have taken about 5 minutes to realise the only and obvious course of action, packed, arranged for someone to feed the cats, and gone. None of that two months of recce and faffing around and waiting for winter to get really nasty and making a couple of bods half way there in advance - female logic would have sent Frodo as excess baggage with Elladan and Elrohir...since they were going that way..... :p

Grrr, I've risen to that particular bait...I've yet to meet a man who can read a map better than I can. I am a self-confessed map-nerd. Although I learned a long time ago never to criticise a man's map-reading, and just to keep smugly quiet while he chooses to go the wrong way...that's if he gets a chance to drive. I'm a decent cook though, I'll give you that. :p

Mithalwen - I reckon Aragorn would be quite well domesticated myself. All those years out in the wild having to take care of his own cooking and mending, being self-sufficient; I find a lot of ex-military men are surprisingly domestic. He'd surely be the one more inclined to do any work, I can't see Arwen doing much beyond a spot of light embroidery. I have a vision of Arwen lifting her feet in the air while Aragorn hoovers the carpet around her, "Don't move my love, I'll be done hoovering soon and then I'll get a cuppa on".

Perhaps the reason Eowyn joined the riders was because it was a bad time of the month? ;)

Excellent! Then I shall continue ... :D

*Faramir and Eowyn are sitting at the front of a cart on their way to visit Merry and Pippin in the Shire. Faramir is holding the reigns and Eowyn is holding the map. The kids are in the back, fighting.*

Faramir: There's the sign to Archet again. Didn't we pass that half an hour ago?

Eowyn: I don't think so. Um, take the next right.

Elboron: Are we there yet?

Faramir and Eowyn: For the fiftieth time, NO!

Faramir: Look, are you sure you know where we are?

Eowyn: Yes, right here, next to the bubbly thing.

Faramir: *Looks at map* That's Chetwood ... Doh! You're holding it upside down.

Eowyn: It's easier to read that way. Hey, why don't you ask this Hobbit the way?

Faramir: I am not asking for directions!

Elboron: Are we there yet?

etc

*Saucepan gazes at the non-plussed stares of those around him*

Er ... this is the Mirth forum ... right? :D

Non-plussed, Herr Saucepan? I prefer "adoring" or perhaps, "idolizing," honestly.

I, a humble member of the fouler sex, lament my ineptitude relating to the fairer. I have dear, dear relationships to many of the species, and yet I remain in the dark. Even now, that I am in the final stretch of hammering down a permanent relationship, I am still, as said, utterly inept. The gender is e'er mysterious, and I fear my own male, boorish, imasculate entourage may never fully understand their intricacies. But, that's all beside the point. I ramble. Mea culpa, as they say.

If there had been women in the Fellowship, I believe many things would be different. But, I must discuss another plausibility (not possibility, plausibility).

Is it not obvious, comrades? There was a woman in the Fellowship.

Gimli, Son of Glóin.

In the cinematic version of The Two Towers, he clearly states that Dwarven women are (read: may or may not) be bearded. Gimli is bearded, and talked of as a 'Son of Gloin' but where is the proof that the manly Dwarf is, in fact, a man? Let's be honest and totally Frank [Sinatra]. There is no proof. The title 'Son of Glóin' has been misinterpreted over the years. A series of lingual flukes, thought of as coincidence, have been disregarded, diverting the true meaning of the title often added to Gimli's name. Gimli is a name taken for granted, and it's meaning oft forgotten, but there are 3 distinct clues as to why Gimli was called the "Son of Glóin."

-Gimli's name meaning is finally revealed in Tolkien Letter 297, dated 1967. Tolkien states that Gimli is a Mannish name, derived from a Nordic tongue. It means 'Fire.'
-In Norse myths, the name Gimli is applied to a Hall in the land of Asgard where great warriors were laid after death. The clue here is that the Hall of Gimli is noted, in the Eddas (I believe) as being 'golden-roofed.'
-In the old lingo of Adûnaic, Gimli can be traced to Gimilkhâd. In the name Gimilkhâd, Gimil means "Star." Thus Gimli can be translated as 'Star.'

So, three clues: Fire, Golden, and Star. Isn't there something all of these words relate to? Some object that bears all three terms? Why, yes, there is. What is golden, fiery, and a Star? Isn't it obvious? THE SUN. So, the title "Son of Gloin," really referred to Gimli's name, not his sex. He was the "Sun of Gloin." But, if you can believe it, there's MORE. Who was the Middle-Earth Spirit of the Sun? It was the Sun-Maiden, a Maia of Vána, Arien: A woman. Strange, is it not, that ol' Gloin would give his "son" a feminine name? Well, it isn't strange, if that "son" was really a daughter.

Gimli, Sun of Gloin was a woman, the only woman in the Fellowship. This explains her masculine overcompensation, trying to just be 'one of the guys.' This also explains why she went on to become the Lady of Aglarond. Unlike her male Dwarven counterparts, she was fascinated by jewelery, and thus founded Middle-Earth's first Jewelery Store in the Glittering Caves. This ALSO explains her desire to have a golden hair from the head of Galadriel. She wanted to know what hair-care products the Elven Ringbearer was using that kept her hair so strait, shimmery, and minty fresh *cough*. Last, but certainly not least, this explains Gimli's relationship with Legolas. They weren't just friends, they were goin' steady. Why else would a Dwarf and an Elf spend 120 years together and sail into the sunset together?

So, in conclusion, I really need to start taking those pills again.

Hee hee, very nice! Why didn't I see it before??

The creepy thing is I brought this up with a few friends today (although not nearly as eloquently and with none of the etymology), and we decided that it was quite possible that Gimli was a woman...

I knew Legolas and Gimli were an item! I knew it! :p

But what is Kransha implying about Gimli's attraction to Galadriel? :eek:

Anyway, I'm still waiting for a mud wrestling contest in the extended dvd
between Eowyn and XenaArwen (of the FOTR movie) over Aragorn.
Loser gets Faramir as a nice consolation prize.

Since Tolkien's major was Norse Mythology, probaly the norse, when they met for councils only Men attended, and seeing how at the Council of Elrond, it was all Men, less i'm mistaken, but Elrond probaly wanted a warrior to go on the quest as well... its mainly just the resources that are availible, elrond probaly had no knowledge or Eyown, rather protective of Arwen... so theres a lovely piece of my brain, enjoy!

Standing ovation
 

*Esty applauds Kransha's brilliant post enthusiastically*

Sir, should you ever hanker to write a cameo (or ongoing) role in this site's only parody RPG, please contact me ASAP!!

Dontcha just hate it when you post something mildly humerous and someone follows it up with a comedy tour-de-force?! :rolleyes: ;)

Curse you and your formidable wit, Kransha! :D

My, my, I certainly did not expect such an ovation. This sudden well of praise is, I assure you, totally undeserved on my part. I suppose I've just been holding back semi-psychotic theories for far to long (does anyone remember when I theorized that Orcs had been made by Melkor to sew his garments, citing "Nonexistent Tolkien Letter #678" as evidence?). Well, it does my *old* heart good to see that my whacked postulate has drawn such illicit laughter. I believe that, with the support of my fellow B-Ders, I'll be able to muster enough evidence to prove my theory and send correspondence to the Tolkien Estate insisting the release the witheld information about Gimli's Secret Femininity.

Now, a personal matter.

*suddenly begins to salivate madly*

You must forgive me, but I'm a little taken aback. I've been, from time immemorial, eyeing that most side-splitting, gut-wrenching, and spleen-tearing of threads. I had never even entertained the possibility that a member of it would actually inquire after me about it. I figured that I'd be the one begging and fawning upon your regal personage, (thankfully, I've been able to show a feeble modicum of restraint, thanks to real-world distractions). I'm not saying you're begging or fawning, though it would be nice if you were *swells with pride, but newfound bulk is unable to conceal the small saliva lake that has formed*.

P.S. When you say 'contact me' do you mean by PM or email...My email address has been acting peculiar lately *continues to salivate*.

P.P.S. If y'all liked this little exercise, you'll probably love my theory about Tom Bombadil and the Merry Dol of Doom.

I don't get it... a really powerful e.l. would've made the fellowship better in my view.... :rolleyes:

P.S.

Kransha, take this hair-drier as a token of my admiration of your post, and great love of clean and dry floors... :rolleyes:

P.P.S.

You're in for some, once I spread some around :D

What conspired
 

My dear fellow Mods. While I applaud your verdant laudatory words here, may I take this opportunity to point out that I took action upon this most excellent theory in the vein of fantasy and construed a commemorative thread in the hopes of rewarding not only this but other fine works in our domain. Best Post of the Week . Please be so kind as to provide your support for my ceaseless efforts to uphold the standard by which we all wish to be entertained. *bows humbly*

Mr. Kransha,

I do hope I have not unduly drawn from the wellsprings of your modesty, with the possible flood which the above thread could generate.

Get thee to a Willowery!

And as for making this post topical, well, I want to raise another issue. It is not why were there no women in the Fellowship, but why was there no woman at the Council of Elrond? Was Arwen relegated to a back room sweatshop where she toiled at her banner-works? Or was she in fact present? Did her presence distract Aragorn and make it too difficult to write a heroic role for him? Is it possible that heroic narrative must deny Truth and Reality by omitting various historical facts? Is Arwen's absence a most notorious example of the silenced woman?

This nefarious slight suggests rank conspiracy at the deepest levels. Why do you think Bilbo refused to acknowledge she was present? Or is the Translator at fault for being unable to decipher the scribbled script? Or is the omission a failure of authorship? Do we have here evidence that, after Arwen's pure and noble rejection of the Ring, Galadriel's near-temptation would have been shown in, er, poor light? Do we have an Author playing favourites with his female characters?

The possibilities boggle the mind, even those not dependent upon pills.

What I mean is that after Gandalf "falls in to shadow" the plot requires Aragorn to take the lead .. I don't think that that would have happened if such a powerful elf-lord as Glorfindel had been there. I think the Flight to the Ford shows that Glorfindel would have taken the lead. Also I think different decisions might have been made and maybe an elf lord revealed in his wrath would have changed the events during and following the orc attack. He might not be able to storm the road to the fire but he could probably make an impression on a gang of Uruks....

Psh... I'd lose on purpose. I don't need a king. :p ;)