The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - Origin of species (at least the hobbits)

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Gothmog

06-15-2004 10:58 AM

Origin of species (at least the hobbits)

As with all other new threads, the answers out there: somebody have already written about it. Problem is, I can't find this anywhere so here I go:

What's the origin of the hobbits? Everybody know that the elves and men were the children of Iluvatar and that he created them. The dwarfs were created by Aule when he didn't have the patience to wait for the Firstborn: the elves. Now there's only two speaking people left : the orcs and the hobbits (well, maybe the dragons but I'm not going to count them to the "peoples").

The orcs were creations of Morgoth. I'm not sure if he managed to create them "from scratch" or if he imprisoned elves, men and beasts and corrupted them into the foul creatures orcs are. I don't think there's a clear answer to that (read the excellent article by HerenIstarion here)

But now to the question (sorry if I'm booring you): Who created the hobbits? When and were did they first awaken? What are their origin???

And also: were do dead hobbits go? To the halls of Mandos as the elves (and dwarfs, right?) or beyond the boundaries of the world as the men?

Please help me out here :)

Carnimírië

06-15-2004 11:15 AM

Hobbits are a sub-group of humans, that is hinted at in the Prologue and made clear beyond question in Letters.

Quote:

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives if ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much of the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten.

LotR Prologue

Letter 158 makes it clear:

Quote:

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) -- hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.

Therefore hobbits have the same fate after death as Men.

Son of Númenor

06-15-2004 11:20 AM

This should answer your question:

Quote:

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all. Yet it is clear that Hobbits had, in fact, lived quietly in Middle-earth for many long years before other folk became even aware of them (The Lord of the Rings, "Prologue", 2).

Hobbits are descended from Men. How they evolved into the little, reclusive people that they are is never made clear.

Edit: I cross-posted with you, Carnimírië. Nice find in the Letters. :)

Gorwingel

06-19-2004 01:05 AM

Basically the quotes that the others have provided tell you that we really don't know how hobbits came to be. Their beginnings are really a complete mystery. The elves didn't know about them because the kept to themselves, and their separation from the race of men happened at such a early time that their was not records of the occurance.

Quote:

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves)

Thank you for providing that quote because I have always been under the impression that their wasn't really a separation. I always thought that men started out individually, and hobbits started out individually, but it is just that they were so quiet that no one paid attention to them.

But I guess I was incorrect :cool:

PaleStar

06-26-2004 11:48 AM

The posts answer Gothmog's question but, just how did the hobbits come into being? Did Eru forsee the evil of Sauron and fashion these stout-hearted folks from Men? Was it one of the Valar, as it was with the Dwarves? Who was it?

MirabellaTook

07-25-2004 05:03 PM

"and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. "

I think that it is interesting that Tolkien should say that. It seems that he is saying that Hobbits are completely free from ambition or greed of wealth. I wonder if this is a characteristic that he decided to change...because Hobbits are decidedly NOT free from these things, they just experience them to a lesser degree than the race of men.

For example when Bilbo is talking to Smaug, Smaug uses Dragon Speech to make Bilbo think the Dwarves are going to stiff him on the treasure...and this actullay alarms Bilbo.

Then there are all the Baggins relatives that hang about searching for Bilbo's treasure after he disappears @ his birthday party.

There are many instances like this. Perhaps Tolkien just meant that they are MORE FREE from greed than men, but he just didn't make that clear in the language he used in that particular letter.

-Mirabella

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