Is there a character you're obsessed with?
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No.
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has to be Gríma Wormtongue, charmingly evil
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Legolas's mother. I want to convince the world that she was alive, intelligent, loving and involved in Mirkwood politics straight through to the end of the War of the Ring.
Hopeless. I wrote one mini-story on Fanfiction and no one else is helping to fill in her true backstory. I'm not trying any more. Except for this one stab - please grant that Tolkien's not mentioning female characters if far from proof that he thought they were dead. It would be quite farfetched to think that Sam, Merry, Pippin and Gimli were all orphaned of their mothers, yet there isn't a peep about any of them. Orphanhood, especially from mothers, gets mentioned (too often) - Frodo, Boromir and Faramir, Aragorn, Eowyn and Eomer, semi-orphanhood for Celebrian's kids. The silences probably refer to the living mothers. Make hay out of that regarding Tolkien's approach to mothers! (I think another thread did this already.) So yeah - I'd like to meet Mrs. Thranduil. |
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Though, if we say that she IS alive, it does seem a bit odd that there's never a reference to her in The Hobbit--not because this necessarily means she's dead, but because the Elvenking and his halls were stolen from Thingol and Menegroth in the writing of The Hobbit and in-universe Thranduil and Oropher before him are attempting to recreate Menegroth among the Silvan. And my point is that Menegroth without Melian makes no sense. So there is AN argument that since we never anything in The Hobbit or elsewhere that hints at the existence of a Melian-ersatz. However, it's also possible that I've already glanced at the answer: Oropher, not Thranduil, had the wife who was the Melian-equivalent. And the reason Mrs. Thranduil has no prominence might be that Mrs. Oropher, unlike Melian, never vanished after the death of her husband. Thus, instead of being able to be the Elvenqueen (Nimloth to Thranduil's Dior), Mrs. Thranduil forebears from a clear public presence and Thranduil reigns effectively alone--if someone had said to Galion, "the Elvenqueen desires some wine," would he have brought it to the dowager or to her daughter-in-law? And the idea that the Dowager-Elvenqueen never left Middle-earth (at least as of the start of the Fourth Age) isn't implausible. We don't know for certain whether Oropher or Thranduil wedded fellow Sindar or Silvan Elves, though if we posit Mrs. Oropher as a Melian-analogue, then a woman of higher race seems possible--and maybe we have the source of Thranduil's golden hair there: perhaps some half-Vanya in the train of the Finarfinians stayed in Doriath with Galadriel, and though a step down from Melian, that would still leave as sufficiently exalted to be the Melian-analogue in a woodland realm that was a step down from Doriath. And, certainly, if Legolas's mother were a Silvan Elf (and, given the timeframe, possibly even a Silvan Elf of a late enough generation to just as plausibly have some Avari in her blood as be pure Nandor), it would make sense that even if Mrs. Oropher was very retired after her husband's death that Mrs. Thranduil would feel uncomfortable stepping into her place while she yet remained in Mirkwood. On that note, I think that fanon has tried to make Oropher a branch of the House of Elmo--on the strength of Oropher and Amdír being Sindarin "princes" and on Celeborn referring to Northern Mirkwood as their kin. And this has a logic to it. But it's nowhere in Tolkien's work, at least that I recall, and it could just as easily be that Mrs. Oropher was the connection to the Elwëans and that THAT made her the Melian-analogue, while it was Oropher's "commoner" status that made him her relatively-lesser, though more-active, consort. And, if that's the source of Thranduil's right to rule, then it is completely understandable why his wife wouldn't take the role of "Elvenqueen" if his mother was still living in Mirkwood--but, though I like this theory, it doesn't have the convenience of tying up Thranduil's mysterious golden hair. |
The behavior of the Mirkwood elves in the Hobbit has a flavor of Tokien's style of male-companionship, more than his notions of female propriety. We don't see Thranduil himself carousing, but he seems not to rein in his people. Some see this as evidence that most of the Mirkwood elves were Avari.
Be that as it may, it probably fits better with Mrs. Oropher, the Melian-figure, having left for Aman some time before, and for Mrs. Thranduil being a lower-status person unable to put her stamp on the goings-on. Or being Avari herself and enjoying that sort of thing. It also fits with Legolas seeming somewhat clueless about the wider world outside Mirkwood, despite having had hundreds of years to get educated. If his grandmother had no Noldor blood (Vanyar weren't "knowers" either) and if he was brought up by an Avari mother with his grandmother out of the way, he might end up being something of a hick. This clashes with my preferred picture of her being Sindar, but it makes more sense. |
Now that I think of it, the Lorien elves didn't treat Legolas like royalty at all. Just like any common elf.
That could well point to an Avari mother. Any thoughts? |
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We know that Thranduil's people didn't so much live in the Halls as centre on them (per The Hobbit), so it could well be that she left Faux-Menegroth to her husband, and spent her time outside in the wider Northern Mirkwood. (She'd be Thranduil's wife rather than Oropher's on the basis that Thranduil seems to remember the death of Thingol as something he was around for, and I don't think there's enough time between Turin's departure and Thingol's death for Nellas to have plausibly gotten married.) All pure fanon, but if you want a canon character to marry Thranduil, I'm pretty sure she's it.* hS *Okay, okay, one of two... "Meleth, nurse of Earendil, was a Sinda of Nevrast who escaped with Idril's party and met Thranduil in the Havens of Sirion". It could work, just about, but would require her to completely throw out her time in Gondolin and be happy living in a knock-off of Menegroth. |
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Nah, Meleth loved Morleg. You will rip this headcanon from my cold dead hands. :cool: |
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Also, I doubt that Nellas got over big brother that quickly.
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I'm fine with Nellas, especially if she's a Nandor.
If not, if his parentage is pure Sindar, how does it fit the puzzle I thought of - why Legolas is not treated as royalty in Lorien, and why he acts so uneducated? |
Also, who was Nellas's big brother?
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Not hers. Mine. ^_^ |
She was changing Turin's diapers. Alright, not quite. But how could she be attracted after bringing him up?
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Well, this implies she was: Quote:
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It implies she cared for him, not that she was attracted.
It is classic that former nannies attend their charges' weddings and college graduations, and give them big, nostalgic hugs. Much attachment and strong feeling, no romantic attraction. |
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But I'm not entirely convinced that we should take the denizens of Lórien--and Mirkwood, for that matter--as necessarily revering all things Sindar. It's clear enough that the founders of those realms did (Oropher and Amdír) and they probably had a nucleus of followers around them, and obviously they presented something by their presence to the Silvan Elves that allowed kingdoms to collalesce around them, but the realms that resulted are still fundamentally Sylvan more than Sindar. Granted, I've already given away my bias in thinking that Oropher and Amdír were probably not relatives of Thingol, so for the sake of consistency, I'm imagining that the argument of "I'm kin to the King of the Sindar" wasn't part of the founding myths of those realms, even if "I will be a new Thingol" was clearly a personal motivation--in Mirkwood, definitely. Amdír is a harder case to make any solid guesses on, not least because the history of Lórien between the Fall of Thangorodrim and the loss of Amroth is better described as written in pencil than indelible ink. It's not hard, in the LotR, anyway, to squint and say that the conception where he's the son of Celeborn and Galadriel still holds. |
I wasn't thinking Lorien should treat Legolas as equal to Celeborn. But still, visiting royalty should get some fancy attention, and he gets none. Aragorn gets more respect from the Lord and Lady than Legolas - which seems appropriately earned. Even Boromir seems to get more. Yet Legolas has had at least a few hundred years to do something to justify his royal upbringing - and still we don't see anything, not in his behavior, not in how Lorien treats him. (They welcome him better than the rest of the fellowship, but that's for being an elf.)
I wonder why Legolas is such a washout among relatives of his own people. |
AIUI, the Elves just aren't very big on pomp and ceremony. Note that Celeborn and Galadriel rose to greet the Fellowship as was, we are told, Elvish custom, and were dressed very simply. Even going back to the First Age and the relatively august Thingol, his foster-son (ergo, adopted prince) Turin doesn't seem to get any bowing and scraping.
(Of course, externally, the Lorien chapters were written before Legolas became the son of the Elvenking from the Hobbit, himself not named until the Appendices.) |
I forgot that piece of authorial chronology.
So Legolas as written wasn't a prince at all. And JRRT didn't retcon any royalty into his behavior. Was he originally from Mirkwood? |
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Originally he was called Galdor (a name Tolkien used for several Elves at various times), and for a long time Galdor/Legolas* was simply a messenger from Mirkwood, not the king's son (in the same way that Galdor in the final version was simply a messenger from the Havens). The Mirkwood connection was there from the start, because it was he who brought word of Gollum's escape. *Both names were borrowed from the original Fall of Gondolin, where Galdor, Legolas and Glorfindel were all heads of Houses. |
Thanks for saving me a re-read. (I'm reviewing other things toward a better treatment of Reality Theory.)
So Legolas was originally a junior undersecretary at best, a low-status runner at worst. That explains everything - why Lorien treated him exactly in that status, and why he was so unfamiliar with Lorien - the royals must have had contact often enough (by elf-standards, at least every hundred-odd years?) so that a Thranduilion would not be as wide-eyed as Legolas was, not only at Lorien but at the wide world in general. So the fault isn't his Avari mother, but his originally ignorant author, who wasn't up to a rewrite after he realized who Legolas "really" was. Now the puzzles (according to Reality Theory) are - first, was Legolas really a prince or not? And second, was his treatment in Lorien something JRRT observed "really happening" because Legolas was a common elf or despite Legolas being a prince - or was it something JRRT invented assuming Legolas was a common elf? To resolve these, I would do a close reading of anything HoME says about T's realization that L was a prince, and then a close reading of the Lorien chapters to see if they have the characteristics of observation, detailed hearsay or invention. IIRC, when I was doing this back in the day, the Lorien chapters seemed most unreliable - T seems not to have observed anything personally and only heard second-(or further)-hand stories about it. Apropos L being prince, the denouement of LotR also seemed to me to include more invention than the earlier chapters - the opposite may be true of the appendices - so Legolas's epilogue behavior (his princely leadership in Ithilien, possible evidence for true princely status), may also be in doubt. But I'd have to go back and check. Anyway, this resolves the original question of Mrs. Thranduil. If Legolas is prince, there is no evidence she is Avari. And if he is not prince, there is even less evidence who she might have been! JRRT's pattern has always been to pair higher status women with lower status men. So we can assume that she was at least a Sindar. If she was Nellas, that would then pose the question of why Nellas was so attached to the woods (Silvan style). But if she was a Sindar Nellas who yet avoided caves, it would at least explain why the Hobbit dwarves and Bilbo never saw her. |
Not obsessed, no.
I wish Tolkien would have written more about Cirdan; maybe as the central figure in a few stories of the Silmarillion. I keep hoping that someone uncovers an old shipping trunk, under some clutter in an overgrown garden shed in Tolkien's old home, and finds an original, 300 page manuscript by JRR, entitled, The Adventures of Cirdan. Unfortunately, I think the window for such a discovery has closed. |
Andsigil, you may want to keep an eye on our slowly developing fan fiction forum...
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I think we'd all be dead before we are even allowed to post new fanfictions... |
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Why should we believe Nellas even survived the First Age? Most of Doriath's population was eradicated, given the Dwarven sack and the 2nd and 3rd Kinslayings. The Silmarillion says that the community at the Mouths of Sirion was "a mere gleaning" of the people of Doriath and Gondolin- the implication is that only a bare handful survived, like Elendil's refugees from Numenor - and that was before the Sons of Feanor rolled through.
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If we're back to speculating about the Queen of Mirkwood, what's the vote on her being higher status to Thranduil vs lower?
All Tolkien's known couples have the wife upstatus whenever possible (Dunadain chieftains and kings of Gondor had nowhere to go up but elves, and they couldn't all do that). Any reason to think otherwise here? Does that explain why Elladan and Elrohir stayed single? They couldn't find higher status elves to marry? (I know the "time of strife" theory, but there were long peaceful times in the 3rd Age.) Same question about Legolas, though for all we know he might have been married, and Gimli too (ducking tomatoes from fangirls). |
This is not about that. It's about characters we're obsessed with. Simply state who it is and why. :mad:
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I said stop, and I mean it. If you don't stay on topic, I am going to mods. Off-topicness is considered a non-no here, after all.
And if you really must talk about off-topic posts, then include me as well. Please? Like, I am trying my hardest to talk to you to be a part of the discussion, and I don't like how you are making it difficult for me to interact with any of you. |
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Personally, I am not obsessed with any character. After a brief perusal of the thread, it would seem the majority view is that they are not obsessed, and after the poster says, "No, I am not obsessed," there is nothing further to discuss. Evidently, no one is obsessed with a character like you are. And you've brought it up in countless posts. Over and over. So, I suppose you can contact the mods. Have them lock the thread, if you wish. |
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