Boromirs Gear
 

From The Departure of Boromir:
His helm? - I have never figured Boromir to wear a helm. There is no other reference elsewhere. Do you guys think that Boromir wore a helmet all the way from Rivendell ?

I was just wondering.

Sure! He's a fighting man, a soldier. Even in his depictions in paint from the brothers Hildebrandt he wears a helm. He's pretty high up on the ladder of importance, being the Steward's son, I've always pictured his stern countenance sporting a grand helm. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

I do not recall a mention of a helm during the Fellowship, but perhaps someone else can lend a hand. I don't have a book within arm's reach. *grins*
One would assume a warrior would have a helm, but did Boromir?? I am uncertain, and does that make me less of a fan..heh, I suppose so.

I think he had the helm with him all the way, yes. He hasn't bore it all the time, I guess, but he had it with him. In the mines of moria and on Amon Hen I don't doubt he had a helm.
And I guess Gimli has a helm too, but I don't know if that's mentioned in the Ring. The were both warriors (or so to speak) among the Fellowship, so I don't think either Boromir or Gimli would go on a many months taking journey without a helm.

Yes, Telchar!

I don't recall any other mention of Boromir's helm. I think that the only other detailed description of Boromir's appearance and 'gear' is when he is sitting at the Council of Elrond.

When Boromir left Gondor, he was travelling alone and on an uncertain route; he would be well-equipped and probably wore the helm all the way to Rivendell. But once a member of the fellowship, I doubt he wore it - he just packed it. Afterall, the Fellowship's hope of success was in secrecy, not warfare. They were not dressed for war when they set out.

As for Gimli and whether or not he had a helmet, I don't think he had one until he was given one at Edoras. There is no mention of one until then. (If he had one before then he must have left it behind at Anduin as excess weight when the Three Walkers began chasing the Uruk-hai.)

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

since boromir was from gondor, it stands to reason that he would probably wear the helm of that city when acting as a soldier. it must have been an oversight by p. jackson to have left it out as part of his gear.

i'd wondered that too...

but then again, the way they'd built the character, B. had a hard time thinking outside his helmet, even when his costume didn't have one (a subtle joke for us, i thought!) so it's rather clever of them to leave the helmet out of the costume in the movie...

s.t.

I kinda agree with Lostgaeriel because that sounds like a really good answer, but I never really imagined Boromir with a helm. I thought of Gimli with one, just not Boromir. Or Aragorn. Nobody but Gimli.

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Lothiriel Silmarien ]

I don't agree that he probably wore it all the way form Gondor. He wasn't riding into battle and was viewed by anyone who saw him as a single lonely rider. Who would bother with something so heavy and combersome if it wasn't really warranted? After all, a helm would hamper your vision and hearing.

I chalk this up to one of Tolkien's inconsistencies very much like the Ponies the hobbits were riding through the Old Forest. If they were riding ponies, why then ... and I noticed also that their backpacks seem to appear and disappear as pleases the moment, as well.

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

Sure, but a little imagination never hurt anyone (maybe). I really don't think that it matters who wore helms when, and about Gimli choosing a helm from Edoras' armory, mightn't he have done that to be polite to King Theoden, accepting it as a gift even though he had his own?

So is JRRT inconsistent because Boromir's helm is mentioned only once he has died? Perhaps he did not wear it into the Council meeting? Seems logical, polite. So Frodo didn't see it then.

Just because JRRT never mentions it until then does not mean he is inconsistent. It just never figured in the plot. He rarely gives detailed physcial descriptions of anyone or anything. (Believe me, I've looked for this kind of information when doing sketches and paintings. This is not necessarily a bad thing - it leaves it open to the artist.)

It makes sense that Boromir wore a helm all the way from Gondor because 1) Minas Tirith was already at war so he may have had to fight his way out of the Pelennor (or back in on his return) and 2) he did not know where or when he might encounter an enemy such as Orcs. A shield* and helmet are not much of a defence, but better than nothing.

*Right, now what about the shield? Where is that mentioned?

Recall:
Was JRRT so intent on comparing the swords that he forgot to mention the helm? Or did the word helm just not flow together with the rest?! There is no line saying that Boromir did NOT have a helm. But JRRT specifies that Aragorn has no weapon but his sword. So even though I would think that a good Ranger should have a knife, he doesn't!

As for Gimli taking a Rohirrim cap of leather and iron just to be polite? In a time of war? Either he had none of his own, or it was better made than his own and offered better protection.

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

Right. I'm not saying Boromir had no helm, just that I think in his place I would not have worn it all the way from Gondor, because, as I said, he wasn't in battle and it wasn't warranted and would hamper hearing and vision. If I felt the need of a helm in the future I would carry it in my pack.

I'm sure we would all have been bored to tears if Tolkien had inventoried the contents of everyone's backpacks.

I was thinking along the same lines, Rae. It wouldn't make sense for him to wear it 24/7, and he had to store it somewhere!

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] And when you're riding along and come upon some Orcs, or Nazgûl or other unforseen enemy, what do you do? Say, 'Wait a minute guys, while I fish around in my pack for my helm, and I'll be right with you. I know it's here somewhere.'? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

See, I'm not convinced my first idea of Boromir packing his helm on his way from Rivendell back to Gondor was all that valid. If he had it, he must have worn it. It's like a motorcycle helmet or bicycle helmet or hard hat or a PFD (personal flotation device) or a parachute. Since it can save your life, there's no point in having it if you don't wear it. When you need it, it will likely be out of reach. (Sorry, it's the risk-reducing engineer in me!)

Now where did Telchar get to, anyway? He started all this mess. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

Well... looking through the nifty game supplement "Treasures of Middle-Earth" that i bought for the diabolical purpose of sending my FRPG players to Middle-Earth in the middle of things, i find a description of the alleged helmet (and since ICE got the sanction to do the Middle-Earth RPG, one can imagine they picked over the books with an electron microscope)

it was apparently not a closed-face jousting helm, but more of a hood, i'm guessing, probably a steel crown/cap and a swatch of chainmail hanging from it (to the shoulders, i'm guessing, as the word "open" seems to indicate no face protection such as a visor) but was said to protect the head just as well as if it had been closed (read: enchanted. "family heirloom" was also noted)

i'm also guessing that, as befits a high-ranking representative of Gondor, it also had the signature raven wings attached to the sides (real or replicas, you decide) As such, it would take up less space than a full basinet (chainmail is somewhat collapsible) so he could have stowed it, and it also would not restrict his vision or hearing as much as a full helm would. It would still afford some protection in the event that he got whacked on the head in a fight (and probably do some damage in a head-butt as well)

He also wouldn't have been wearing it at the council -- breach of etiquette! (while tact was probably more Faramir's strong suit, i'd trust Boromir to know his manners, especially when dealing with other heads of state!)

s.t.
resident gamer geek #152?

Are the traditional helmet 'wings' those of ravens? For some reason I thought they were gull wings?

i thought they were ravens when they handed Pippin one of the helmets... or maybe that was just the Citadel's insignia (the black & silver motif. besides, i had the impression that only the King got the white wings!) Will have to check that when i get home tonight!

s.t.

Well, It would make more sense to wear it while he was with the Fellowship, because the enemy could sense the ring. But while he was riding north? That's more than I'm willing to believe.

I think he had a helm in his pack and and he put it on when he knew he was going to fight. Afterall, how would you like to have a 10 pound block of metal on your head all the time? When he was aware of the orcs he got it out. My theory is he had it in a very handy spot in his pack. http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/otn/...kingsmiley.gif
BTW, when Tolkien wrote LotR, I don't think he had in mind people would start a big, long, debate on whether Boromir had a helm or not.

Yeah, and it's a lot harder to get to the chiropractor!

Well, last night i dug through the book to the description of Pippin's helm, but outside of describing the insignia, Tolkein doesn't give us mideval-FPRG-geeks much to chew on. However, since Faramir later gives the deceased's rank as the High-Warden of the Tower & Big-Muckety-Muck General, it makes sense to assume that he had a very similar helm to what the grunts beneath him were wearing (maybe just a bit fancier)

(the game supplement tells me even less about what the helm's supposed to look like, meaning that, as a GM, i could construct the helm after any fashion i chose, so long as it featured the star and wings and coordinated with the rest of his gear...)

s.t.

He also probably did not plan on people having big long debates on the color of Legolas' hair, or Balrog wings (or the lack of them). [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I believe Lostgaeriel hit it on the nose about Tolkien stinting with the descriptions. Seems to me that JRRT never gave many physical descriptions until he needed them, and then not with much detail.

Seeing as Boromir was a warrior, I believe he wore too Rivendell and on the way back. He was already battle seasoned, was riding in unknown territories where a threat may pop out of the flora without a moments notice. So he wouldn't be taking many chances by not wearing it.

As far as a helm weighing ten pounds. Well some of you need to do some research. A full suit of plate weighed around seventy pounds total. The History Channel (for those of you with cable and get the station) did a wonderful five hour series called Arms and Armor. They had a couple guy's wearing full plate doing cartwheels. This wasn't the cumbersome, engraved and gilded ceremonial crap used for the palace progression, which often weighed more than that intended for field use.

Saxony Tarn

So are you saying that probably all the warriors of Gondor wore the same sort of wings on their helmets? Probably then they were the gull wings?

Tarthang

I don't get the HIstory Channel - so thanks for the info. btw, did the program say how they reinforced the helmet so it wouldn't crumple when smacked with a heavy weapon?

Interesting Info, Tarthang, Thank You.

piosennial & Raefindel
You're welcome for the info. Unfortunately they did not give any info on how the helmut's were reinforced. FYI the series I mentioned is several year's old. Also the suit's they had guy's doing cartwheels in were modern replica's. They did mention that no one know's how to actually smith armor by any original processes. Apparently the armor smith's kept their secret's much better than did swordsmith's. Though they did have some one attempting to smith a helm on a rounded anvil (looked like a wig-stand only of steel instead of styro-foam), so I imagine a helm's strentgh has to do with it's actual shape, thickness and grade of steel from which it's forged.
BTW I don't recommend using paper & dice rpg rulebooks as an accurate source to learn about armor or weapons. I know for a fact that the D&D tables weren't well researched. (Based off of independent research on the web and a few TV programs. Try Discovery and Learning Channel as well, occassionally they both have a show on such topics in addition to the History channel). [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Right on, Tarthang -- from one who has no problem crossing out huge chunks of TSR tome text and noting in the margin "see Saxon Operation House Rules p. 35" and such!! Museum Replicas catalog trumps Gygax's tables any day (and the same can be said for picking up the sword and swinging it yourself)

As for the wings, i'm merely guilty of taking what was mentioned in one case (Pippin getting armored) and extrapolating. They could just as easily have had unique helms, but i am second-guessing Tolkein for making Gondor's army a unified scheme (with, again, the black and silver/white motif predominant), and Rohan's muster a more motley, Viking-like assortment with each man sporting gear decorated to his own tastes.

s.t. (with shoulders still aching after wearing that 23# chain hauberk for an evening w/o proper shoulder pads... ow...)

to piosenniel:
First of all there are two kinds of helms, the helm and the great helm which weights 22 pounds and is extremely aquard I doubt very much that Boromir used a great helm. In addition, the normal helm tapers into a rounded point at the top to deflect blows to the head even though it didn't do squat against a great ax or mace. It also had mail going down the back and sides. (When I say great ax I mean the type used by Viking berserkers or the 5 to 6 foot type used by the Saxon housecarls.) P.S. people learn the difference between the flail and mace. The mace is not on a chain the flail is.

[ February 22, 2003: Message edited by: NAri Brassbow ]

Saying there are "two types of helm" is a oversimplifying a bit, don't you think? Since you know your mace/flail distinction, can you explain the difference between a bascinet, a barbute and a sallet? Anyway, I don't picture Tolkien's warriors ever wearing great helms, as in our history it's a 12 c. invention, and I always picture ME as earlier than that, with simple cap helms like the types worn by vikings, saxons, normans, etc. (That is my personal view, but I think it fits in with what Tolkien seems to write. He's really not very interested in those details, though. I was disappointed to see the big shiny breastplates on Gondorian soldiers in the films, but really like the arms of the Rohirrim.)

Back on topic, I never thought Boromir had a helm, but if one went down the river with him, then I suppose he did. However, I am convinced that Gimli did not travel with a helm, but only a suit of mail--it's odd that in the film they had it the other way round. As for Aragorn, I'm sure he would have had a knife--maybe Tolkien didn't count it as a weapon, though. Perhaps he was emphasizing that he carried no bow?

About the inconsistancy Raefindel
mentioned. Did it ever occur to you that maybe all there bags were on the ponies at that time and maybe they were leading the ponies on foot? Maybe it was hard for the ponies to walk at that point.

congats to you Dain i hope you feel well you stumped a fifteen year old who just yesterday meaning friday took a history book to the back of the head for reading tolkien [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: NAri Brassbow ]

Well, I just wanted to test you, that's all. You were basically right about the helm/great helm duality, but you should continue your research, and your Tolkien reading. I think I actually knew more about helms when I was 15, though... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

what you want i go to public school the most we learn is american history and everyone complains about the hobbit in english class so i get nothing but glares and hisses from the illiterate knaves

i think we're getting off topic here so...
do you think boromir's shield was completely round or did it end in a point at the bottem

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: NAri Brassbow ]

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: NAri Brassbow ]

is it possible tht boromir's helm could be made of mithril

I don't think it would have been mithril--maybe it had some other sort of magic that made it appear just in time to be put in his funeral boat... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I like to picture him with a round shield, like the one he had in the film. It was the most common shape in the dark/early-middle ages. The pointed shields came for cavalry purposes, since they covered down the leg. The Sutton-Hoo shield is round, and that's the basic look I think middle earth matches--except for the Hobbits and their waistcoats! It's a bit of a conundrum...

Yes, with american public schools, you probably don't have any idea what Sutton Hoo is. Use the internet (but carefully), and your local libraries to compensate. It sure helped me...

Great work here on the style of helms!
I don't know much about helms, but I've worn several, and my feeling is that Boromir's helm was probably the open-face type.
Those can be mighty heavy too, let me tell you, I tried on a Lobster-helm (as we call'em in Recreationist groups) and it nearly broke my neck!

I also have to make a statement on wearing closed-face helms - they are not comfortable for a long, hot march. If I were a warrior it would depend upon my situation - hey, you can't sleep in it! Many fighters simply carry it in their hands with the chin-strap used as a handle. When it's time to fight - woosh! You're in and all you have to do is tighten the chin-strap.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

is it possible that Boromir's hlem had protection runes on it?
it also doesn't help that my school realy likes inclusion

inclusion?

I'm picturing more of just a metal cap than a huge, heavy helmet with visor or a great helm. He's obviuosly travelling light, and probably kept it in a pack or hanging somewhere in his gear, hence why it isn't mentioned until his end. "His helm they set beside him" and that's it. Very strange, though, the sudden appearence of it.

For edification: sutton hoo and a norman helm, the closest I could come to what I think ME helms would be like. I think Boromir's would have been nicer, less plain, and designed to be worn without a mail coif, because it's fairly certain he had no mail. Elendil wore a fancy one in the film, but I don't picture something that stylish. The elvish helms in the film were obviously based on ancient greece, which gave them a nice, different look. Anyway...

Actually, I'm now convinced that it was the not-actually-there-until-it- magically-appears-at-Amon Hen type.

I would never have believed it, but it seems to me that Tolkien made a continuity error in LOTR. This is the only one I'm aware of so far. Despite attempts to reason or to deny, I don't think anyone has really succeeded in making the error go away. If Boromir's shield was worthy of mention when setting out from Rivendell, then why not his helm? Because it didn't sound good? Please. What about the description of Fingon's helm being burst asunder in The Silmarillion? That might have looked good at Boromir's last stand, but only the Horn of Gondor got a mention.

Most of the posts above have involved something along the lines of, "Boromir must have had a helm, because I would have given him one if I had written the book." Whether you're Peter Jackson, or Joe Sixpack from Wisconsin, it doesn't matter what you think the Fellowship should have been wearing. Gimli had only a hood until Helm's Deep (nice choice of name), and Boromir had no helm until his magically appeared after he died.