PJ's tongue-in-cheek moments
 

I think Peter Jackson has put some jokes into TTT! Things that bothered me the first time I saw the movie are quite possibly homages to other movies or events. Here is what occurred to me:<P>Shadowfax rearing up in the sunrise - seemed very cheesy to me at first, but now I think it could be a Western spoof!<P>The "Olympic" runner orc with the torch for lighting the explosives at Helm's Deep!<P>Have you seen more of those tongue-in-cheek moments?

That's a interesting take, Estelyn. <P>To me, Legolas's shield-boarding scene down the stairs during the Battle at Helm's Deep recalled an important scene in a Woody Allen movie. I can't quite remember the name, but it is the scene with the baby carriage bouncing down the steps, which of course recalls to us all that important scene from the Russian film, Potemkin.<P>We might not give PJ enough credit for his sense of humour. <P>Bethberry

But why would you put spoofs on other movies/genres in TTT? It wasn't meant to be a comedy. Even if the Horse Rearing scene was a little cheesy (I kind of liked it, but I like cheese...yum...) it would be worse if it was an intentional joke. The humor in the movies should, I think, be limited within the world of Middle-earth, for the most part. Hobbits in the Big People's world, for example. You can get many chuckles out of that, and Tolkien himself inserted humorous passages about it here and there. (e.g. "This is not a Hobbit walking party!")<P><I>*Soapbox teeters precariously, forcing me to jump off*</I><P>Anyway, for other tongue-in-cheek moments, there's the ever obvious "No one tosses a Dwarf" to "It's too far, you'll have to toss me", which I believe is a reference to the bar game of literally throwing Dwarfs around. But that could just be a way of pointing out that in Middle-earth, things are different, and <I>no one</I> ('sides Aragorn) throws Dwarves around.<P>Edit: As Bethberry points out, there's the Shield Surfing scene. (Is Bethberry serious about the Woody Allen thing, Diamond wonders?). I thought that was just a way to reach out to the Extreme Sports afficiandos in the audience. Improving Legolas' image with the guys, you know.<p>[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

Diamond, you sure it wasn't improving Legolas's image with the girls? Not that he needs it. Well, back to topic: I suppose the possibility for the western spoof was in there, but in my opinion, it wasn't intentional. I don't think PJ would do that, and I can't point out any of my own (boy, am I dull...), but then again, PJ walks around in the snow barefoot...

My dear Diamond,<P>I assure you: my face is straight even as a muscle or two twitches.<P>You are probably quite correct that Allen's <I>Bananas</I> is too campy to sustain direct allusion, particularly in its refusal to admit the true nature of despots. However, I believe it might be possible to perceive similarities between Legolas and Fielding Mellish, both of whom do come to find themselves in situations not of their initial intention.<P>The stronger parallel surely is Eisenstein's visionary, technical landmark, <I>Battleship Potemkin</I>. Not only do we have similarity of visual imagery in this echo of the famous "Odessa Stairs" scene, with the brutal assault of orcs in both films, but the kinetic editing of Eisenstein finds a parallel in PJ's disconcerting jumps, however short his scene. Another incontrovertible parallel is that both movies forego character development in favour of melodrama and ensemble narrative.<P><B>Estelyn</B>, replying to Diamond convinces me that PJ made it so.<P>Bethberry<p>[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>there's the ever obvious "No one tosses a Dwarf" to "It's too far, you'll have to toss me", which I believe is a reference to the bar game of literally throwing Dwarfs around.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Diamond, I think this meant slightly more. In the UK (and thus NZ, our slang is pretty similar) tossing somebody (off) means the equivalent of the US jerking someone off. I think PJ got away with this because the American New Line wouldn't have caught it necessarily, but it's definitely a sexual reference. But not crudely, just cheekily.<BR>And of course a word like 'toss' means different things to different people, probably why it got through the censors' net.

*puking uncontrolably* thank you for that *puke* info Cazoz *shudders* <P>but we must remember pj's track record, <I>Bad Taste</I> and his other cheese gore movies. So the fact that there lurk many uh... PJ-esque scenes is not suprising.

Very cool topic. <BR>I see where you all are coming from, and there are some very intriguing ideas mentioned But let's not get unnecessarily 'deep' in some of the lines. As far as Gimli's goes; just refer back to the Bridge of Khazad-Dûm and the line makes sense. Not that you all don't already know this but I just get a little tired of so many of the scenes/lines in the movies being taken to the extreme. <BR> I do agree that the Shadowfax rearing scene was a <I>little</I>...how you say...'overdone'. I can't really think of any more 'tongue in cheek' moments right now. But that's probably on account of the fact I've only seen the movie once. I plan to ammend that situation as soon as possible, though.<P>God bless,<BR> ~*Laialthriel*~

I agree about that Shadowfax-thing. It really is cheesy, and PJ&Co aren't stupid, they must've known it. What's great about that scene is that we can -at least i could- at the same time be a little amused and charmed by it. So no, I don't think it was unappropriate. The joke was subtle enough.

Cazoz:<P>Yes, I know the alternate meaning. That's why I said "I believe" because it is my opinion that it is refering to the bar game. Let's just say that I find the other scenario unlikely when all things are considered. But I won't go into why, as discussions about this subject are discouraged.<P>Bethberry:<P>You have totally lost me, now, unfortunately, as <I>Bananas</I> is one Woody Allen movie I have not seen. But they're all the same anyway, aren't they?

again about the Shadowfax thingy... my dad and uncle both started to laugh very hard when Gandalf whistled and Shadowfax came running up the hill. They said it reminded them of some commercial with the sunshine and that music... too bad I can't remember which...

When I saw Shadowfax coming, I had to laugh, too, because my uncle next to me said aloud what I was thinking: Hey, here comes Black Beauty!<BR>Does anyone of you still know this horse? It was some kind of a story of the love of a child to his horse, named Black Beauty. <BR>I don't think that P.J thought of this, though. But he must have known that this scene is more funny than giving you an impression of Shadowfax, the fastest horse in whole Middle-Earth.<BR>Oh and I remember somebody next to me say: If he had a horn on his head, he would be the last unicorn. Well, no comment.

<B>Diamond</B>, so true about the Allen movies. There is a 'steps' scene in 'Bananas' which is a direct nod to Eisenstein's 'Battleship Potemkin', which is an early masterpiece of film. If you ever get a chance to see it, take it.<P><B> Estelyn</B>, come to think of it, that scene where Aragorn is awakened from his dream about Arwen could be called quite... muzzle in cheek.<P>Bethberry

You have to give PJ a break on the Shadowfax part. A horse rearing up on its hind legs, I admit, is a huge cliche. BUT the reason it's that way is because it's very heroic and dramatic. I must say that I would have done it if I was the director.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The "Olympic" runner orc with the torch for lighting the explosives at Helm's Deep!<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Alright. So we're all captivaded by this huge epic battle and suddenly the ranks of the Uriki spit to reviel an orc running with a torch to light the bomb. <BR>And though I tried very hard to make that seen feel like it goes with the rest of the movie I can't do it. After we first saw the movie my brother told me that orc looked like he was in the Olimpics. I have no idea if this was intenional or not but in my opinion it was more cheesy then dramatic.

I never really understood what the phrase tongue-in-cheek meant . . . or why it makes sense. <P><BR>A random observation from the strange mind of Merri

I first saw TTT with some school friends, who cracked up when shadowfax appeared.<P>For those of you living in the UK, they also couldnt stop laughing when they saw ;old' Theoden, because he looked likle Father Jack from the TV series 'Father Ted'. That scene has never been the same since!<P>Also, when Aragorn kisses Arwen in his dream, and is then nuzzled in the lips by Brego the horse...bad enough, but the VERY NEXT SHOT shows Aragorns fingers curling through Brego's mane...even I snorted on my drink at that...<P>lots of other bits seemed funny when im not sure they should have been. The head-turning in unison of the elves in helms deep; the white flower appearing on screen alone as Theoden speaks besides theodreds grave; the music at the end in Osgiliath (makes the hobbits sound like their in a hovis advert)...all little things, but didnt stop me LOVING the film!

I think that if PJ was being "tongue-in-cheek" i.e. 'taking the p*ss' with Olympic Orc, the least Howard Shore could have done was play <I>Chariots of Fire</I> while he ran for the gold. Legolas, obviously not a track and field fan.<P>One of the funniest moments in the movies is in extendedFOTR when Frodo insinuates Bilbo has been at the Gaffer's homebrew. "No!... well, yes." he says. I think that's the most subtle the humour ever gets. In fact I don't think 'tongue-in-cheek', or 'subtle' are very applicable to the movies. All the humour, to me at least, seems pretty overt, and all in the context of the characters, not as a reference to things outside the movies. "We shouldn't even be here" from Sam in Osgiliath is a good one, but it takes a Barrow Downer to appreciate that.

*bump*<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> To me, Legolas's shield-boarding scene down the stairs during the Battle at Helm's Deep recalled an important scene in a Woody Allen movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I had a different idea... did you notice that the background music there was Back to the Future? And the reference to "Sharpe" in Boromir's line about Narsil...<P>~Menelien

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The "Olympic" runner orc with the torch for lighting the explosives at Helm's Deep! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah we thought so too, in the cinema we were yelling, "go son! do it for ya country!"<P>Oh yeah, and the tossing dwarf thigie, if you listen to the directors commentary in the extended FOTR DVD it explains that it is a refference to a game played in england up to hundreds of years ago when they would throw small people around... not "tossing off" as in the Aussie/Nz context! lol.

Balin999, I was thinking exactly the same about the Black Beauty-ness of Shadowfax. Isn't the most famous scene from the film (not having seen it myself) when the horse rears exactly like Shadowfax?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well, I had a different idea... did you notice that the background music there was Back to the Future? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was supposed to be Back to the Future. And, at one point, as Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas run across the plains, they play the "Jurassic Park" theme for a brief second.<P>In the first, the crebain flying was supposed to be reminiscent of "The Birds". I forget what else, but there was a lot in the first as well.

I never really noticed any of those first ones... hmmmm weird but now it does sorta occur to me that some moments may be very cheesy lol

There´s a scene in the mountains, and I SWEAR it looks alot like in that horrible 60s-Charles-Heston-movie of <I>The Call of the Wild</I>.(only without the gun) Horrible. Terrible. *shudderes*<P>And Vanima, are you serious about the Jurassic Park thingy??

When elf boy takes that ride on the shield I too thaught of back to the future. Of course you can never forget the Ent with its head on fire. If you watch the back ground you will see this poor guy, he put the fire out when they break the damn. Also that short fat Ent is jumping on orcs. That was cool. Hop, squish, hop, squish. <BR> <BR>Then I was thinking when the rain started at helms deep," and you think it can't get any worse....."

I love the way the tall guy on Theoden's right rolls his eyes upward as the rain begins to patter on their armor. *Thanks a lot Manwe, just what we need!*<P> And of course Theoden *had* to ask; 'is this all you can muster, Saruman?'<P> What can I say. I *love* the shield boarding scene. So much for my reputation as a Tolkien purist.<P> And the Dwarf tossing thing never bothered me either. It makes sense in Middle Earth terms as well as ours so it's not like it's some kind of anachronism.<P> Every time I watch Shadowfax gallop up I find myself thinking "wasn't he supposed to be a dappled grey?" On the other hand I just *love* the shot of Shadowfax and Gandalf lambent against the rising sun. I guess I'm a cheese lover at heart.

BOARDSLIDING IS CLASSIC!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "We shouldn't even be here" from Sam in Osgiliath is a good one, but it takes a Barrow Downer to appreciate that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never got that in the movie, but that's a really good one! Do you think that PJ knew what Sam really said with this line?<P>Oh and I also think that Shadowfax' colour is not really the one it is supposed to be. I mean, a White horse, that's Snowmane!<BR>Maybe Theoden borrows "Shadowmane" in RotK! ha! That would be the last time that I saw a PJ movie.<P>Edit: Oh and I always imagined that it would be great if Shadowfax ran to Gandalf and when he finally gets there you notice that he is so small that he only reaches to Gandalfs ankles hahaha!<p>[ June 11, 2003: Message edited by: Balin999 ]

Actually, if you look, they use different horses for Shadowfax. One has black skin on its nose and the other has pink. The one with the black skin on the nose is quite friendly and happy-looking. The one with the pink skin has its ears back a lot, showing a grumpy, "don't get near me!" look. It was fairly obvious, at least to me.

At the end when Sam gives his wonderful monologue and the music swells, my teenagers, under their breaths were chanting "Rudy" "Rudy". It was a little schmaltzy but I loved it anyway. <P>I think this series requires everyone to suspend some of our jaded urban and urbane sensibiliities and take hold of a little idealism.