Small hands do them because they must...
 

When once again reading the LotR, something in the council of Elrond really started bothering me, and I wonder if someone here had a reasonable explanation for it.

Even before Frodo announces that he will take the ring, Elrond and Gandalf both seem to know that Frodo will take it. Well, of course it could be just their assumptions, them being Wise and all, but they actually seem to pressure Frodo by their hints.

First of all, Elrond's seems almost cruel to me. Nothing awry in there except for the fact that it was said before Frodo announced he'd take the Ring.

Also, Gandalf tells Bilbo to This statement also caught my eye. Why would Bilbo write a sequel if someone else went and not Frodo?

So. What do you think? Are they pressuring Frodo on purpose? Or do they know somehow that he has already decided to go and try to encourage him? Or are those quotes just accidental slips? Or am I exaggerating? Or something else?

Not having re-read this part of the book recently, I must be somewhat speculative. At this point in the story, thr Ring belongs to Frodo (as much as it can belong to anyone but the Dark Lord.) I think both Gandalf and Elrond were insightful enough to know that Frodo would not very likely surrender the Ring voluntarily, so whatever might happen at the Council of Elrond, it could only amount to nothing more than advice to Frodo as to what he should do. Whatever they chose to do with the Ring, that choice would have to acceed to Frodo's choices in the matter.

Fascinating questions The Little Green...nice thread idea.

I think there are several "options" here...the first being perhaps Elrond and Gandalf already knew that Frodo would accept the task. As after he does, Elrond chimes in with:
Also, you may find this thread (The Scouring of the Shire) to be a nice read. There was a little discussion about how Tolkien set up a "complimentary balance" between the high, noble characters and the simple, ordinary ones. As he would write to Milton Waldman in Letter 131:
The 'high and noble' are there to do the brunt work like dragon slaying, fighting in epic battles, and perhaps carrying the little hobbits through a blizzard? Yet, without the "simple and ordinary" hobbits (such as Frodo and Bilbo) the heroic feats of the 'high and noble' are meaningless. Because the high and noble will not agree (they might not even succeed) in doing the dirty tasks, like bearing a Ring under tremendous agony and strain across Middle-earth. The high and noble will do the heroic deeds, while the "weak and small hands" will do the dirty tasks, undergoing extreme phsyical and mental pain, that the high and noble won't do. ;)

Interesting topic, LG. Though personally I think, as we Czechs say, that the dog is buried elsewhere, there may be something to what you are saying here. Elrond indeed seems to hint something, to me it rather looks like that he knows Frodo is going to take the task, but (hypocritically?) tries to push the thought backwards and tries to look, or maybe even convince himself to think, that anybody can be chosen yet. I just imagined the funny situation that often happens among schoolchildren or so: a request is raised and every high Elf Lord just sits and looks to the ground and thinks "Let's be silent and pretend that I am not here, Frodo will eventually take it". :D

Anyway, I believe with a little good will at least the second quote you provided can be relativised: Bilbo could write the sequel even if the quest did not concern Frodo personally, because the tale would still concern Bilbo's Ring (which is actually why the old hobbit stood up in the first place, so the idea that Gandalf's response should be understood in this way is very plausible here).

Great thread Little Green! Well Elrond did have the gift of forsight so he very well could have seen that Frodo was going to take the ring. I alsough think that Elrond didn't think that a man was strong enough to carry the ring, and elves don't trust dwarves, so that leaves a Frodo or another elf.

Heh we have the same saying in Denmark. . .

I am not convinced by your arguments, they just don't fit with the view I have of the different characters. Why would Elrond try to convince him self that another choise could be made if that was not indeed the case?
Is it not more plausible that Elrond is saying these things to give Frodo a chance to take this task, he seems to be ensuring Frodo that he is just as able to take this task as anybody else. If not directly encouraging Frodo to take the task. . . . For me it seems likely that a hobbit amongst great Dwarven, Elven and Human worriors would feel small and insignificant and thus be discouraged from taking the ring.

Yeah Bilbo could definitly write a sequal no matter who embarked on the jurney to Mount Doom, but it does seem more likely that he would do so if it included Frodo.

I'm not sure you understood me correctly (or if yes, then I misunderstood you ;) ). I was referring to the time before Frodo said that he's going to take the Ring. I mean that if Elrond had some foreknowledge that Frodo is going to take the Ring, he deliberately tried to behave as if he didn't know that, and asked the question as if anyone could have said "I'll go". What I said was supposed to aim to the opposition of what LG suggested, that maybe Elrond pushed Frodo to take the Ring by his remarks about small hands. I say otherwise: Elrond knew that Frodo is going to take the Ring, so he (unintentionally?) let out the remark about small hands, but he tried the choice to look free, even though he knew how it's going to end.

I think it was me who misunderstood you. . .I think.

Let me just say that I find it very hard to belive that Elrond would say stuff like that unintentionally.

Secondly unless he had some sort of forthsight then I really doubt that he knew the outcome! He probably had a good idea what the outcome would be and which outcome would be most desirable, but even the very wise cannot see all ends.

It is true. Maybe it really was his attempt to encourage Frodo - but I wouldn't call it "pushing", indeed, rather a remark to raise the spirits of the present people with "smaller hands", especially when a recount of famous high kings' deeds and world-shaking events preceded. Or it was simply a general remark and had nothing to do with the situation, or was not meant to (even though from looking backwards it was obvious its meaning deeply touched the present situation).

Well by "knew" I did not mean really "knew", but rather something like "presumed"; and I take even his words to Frodo later ("If I understand aright all that I have heard, I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.") rather as prophetic than visionary; not that he would really know the future, but rather that he perceives very well the present and thus can say this. The moments when someone's foresight shows something concrete from the future that's not trackable from the present are really rare in M-E (and currently I remember only Malbeth or Dírhael and Ivorwen, or Huor at the retreat from Nirnaeth), and this one does not seem like that. And Elrond concludes this speech of his by other words showing his thinking: "Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?"

Oh my. . .I think we basicly agree with each other! :eek:

Hey, but that's good, isn't it? :D

I guess, I am just not used to agreeing with anyone else than Lal and Davem.

Oh, then I feel really privileged :D

I'm sorry to be boring but I think the main question is "why did Tolkien write that?". He knew Frodo was going to take the ring and that might have been just making way to Frodo saying he'll do that - so that it looked literally credible and Frodo didn't have to shout that just out of the blue.

But why was Frodo willing to take the ring in the first place? Was he already then so affected by it that he wouldn't have surrendered it voluntarily? Did he find it his duty?
Given this and Elrond's gift of foresight, I think Elrond and Gandalf knew Frodo was going to take the ring and were encouraging him. I don't have my copy of Lotr with me at the moment, but if I remember correctly Bilbo said he understood where Elrond was getting at with that small hands thing and said he'd take the ring. At least Gandalf knew quite a deal about hobbits, and I think he might well have guessed they would be the ones to volunteer.

I wonder, though, if it meant something that Frodo volunteered to take the ring. My mind connects it to Gandalf's statement that when Bilbo just after getting the ring spared Gollum's life, the ring didn't have as strong influence on Bilbo as it possibly would have otherwise. If someone had told Frodo to take the ring or otherwise put pressure on him so as to make him do that, would he have been more easily tempted by the ring and abandoned his quest?

Just tossing in my two cents, here....

Gandalf (who has long been my favorite character, so I'm not bashing him here) has long had a reputation in ME as a meddler (especially among the Mortals). If he appears to be prodding Frodo into taking the Ring at the Council, it's something he started back when he urged Bilbo to let go of the Ring and let it pass to Frodo. I suspect that, though he no vision of the future that we know of, he had at the very least begun to suspect where Frodo's path was leading back when he first told him the truth about the Ring and asked him what he would now do with it. This whole thing was a very dark business from the start. Even though he and Elrond may have all but known the inevitability of Frodo's fate, it was a path he really had to choose for himself. Are they prodding him toward it or offering false hope by their comments during the Council, or are they offering various options for Frodo's consideration, which he must have the chance to consider whether or not they think this path is fated for him? So many ways of interpreting this, I think.

And I'm beginning to think I ought to make my signature "Call me Ibrin or Ibri." :D

I think it's interesting how Elrond words his explanation to Frodo, that the task is appointed for him and not to him. Normally one appoints a task to someone, leading me to think that Elrond (whether from foresight or from Gandalf's counsel) understood that Frodo was suited for the job. The decision to accept this "fate," then, lies in Frodo's (small ;)) hands. But that leads me to pondering the position fate (or maybe, more accurately, chance [the ring "chooses" Bilbo, or just so happens to fall off Gollum's finger at the right time]) has in the whole ordeal, and already I'm confused. I haven't read the books in a while.

In addition to the other comments, so as not to repeat them...
 

I think that Elrond, like Gandalf, saw the "strong side" of hobbits. He might have half-known-half-guessed that only hobbit would be able to take the task.

*That made me think of this - Elrond to hinself: "Only a hobbit would be strong enough - or stupid enough - to do this..." :D*

And, as has been said before, both Elrond and Gandalf probably sensed that Frodo would have to go. Bilbo did too.

Great question, Little Green. I could honestly owe up that this particular question had plagued my mind too. The replies posted are the same that I would have cited. am of the belief that it was a combination of several factors that caused Lord Elrond to comment such.

One would be his foresight, as has been mentioned before. And the other could be his wish to boost Frodo's confidence. If I remember correctly, Hobbit were the one group for whom no rings of power were crafted. it provided them more 'immunity' as considered to other souls. Even Gollum, who held on to the ring for so long, did not lose of his humanity. And Bilbo became the first person who willingly gave up the ring; though Gandalf did say that it was the ring's own will that prompted such an action.

Gandalf and Elrond being two of the wisest persons of the Arda knew, or at least suspected, that Frodo will have to be the one to carry the ring to its destruction. Not least because t would have been difficult, though not impossible, to convince Frodo to part with his ring.

In sort, Frodo Baggins was their best choice for this journey, as I doubt that they could have found another being whose mind could withstand the ring's temptation as much as the hobbits'. Elrond and Gandalf meddled; yes, but that meddling was probably the only way that could have achieved the end it did.

In fact, it was obvious that Frodo would have to be the carrier ever since Gandalf ordered him to reach Imladris. Had it not been his intention, he would have (in my opinion) not allowed the hobbits to scale such a journey.

Good point! I think that Gandalf meant his own promptings, though, not the Ring's.

Oh yes! You are right. :). I went back and re-read that part. Gandalf said that the ring left Gollum at its own will. But Bilbo was the person to cast it aside. Thank you for pointing it out. This act of Bilbo's just makes you love the hobbits even more, doesn't it?" ;)

You're very welcome. There's nothing better than pointing at other people's mistakes. ;) [/kidding. I also mix up little details like that.]

It makes me love Bilbo, Gandalf, and hobbits in general even more, as you said.

"The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."

I actually took that as an encouragement to common folk, not to Frodo in particular. I think Gandalf is implying that it would not make much difference if a Hobbit or an Elf took the Ring, since its power could ultimately control any being, and that perhaps the folk that had been hitherto neglected in history would be brought to the light because the 'greater' people simply would not do the most difficult task. If anything, I think he is praising the Hobbits for their valour, and also for their willingness to go into peril even though they are not directly related to Sauron or the Ring (save Bilbo's act of picking it up).