Coffee!
 

In "The Hobbit" Bilbo serves coffee to the Dwarves. Where on Middle-earth did hobbits in the Shire get coffee???

Here's an idea, my good Barrow Wight.

There are some who would whisper rumors that while pipeleaf was being exported from the Shire, coffee was being imported ... from the City of the Corsairs in Umbar, perhaps?

Not that I'd personally consider exchanging weeds for beans a good trade. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

My two pieces of mithril,

Gandalf the Grey

Wonder if Juan Valdez is part Hobbit??? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Seriously though they either were growers of it like Old Tobey and Longbottom Leaf or it was something they learned from another race at some point. Didn't a Dwarf ask for some also, so they also had at least known of it. Maybe they traded, come to think of it coffee is a warm climate crop, and the Shire didn't seem to be the Costa Rica of ME.

Elrian: I, too, was going to ask: Since it was the dwarves that asked for the coffee, where on Middle-earth did dwarves get coffee??? Southern Gondor would make sense, I suppose, climate-wise... but as for that area's connection with the Shire..?

Maybe the Dwarves were more "Americanized" than the Hobbits, who, in English-fashion, drank tea?

In my opinion, the coffee beans were grown by the Dwarves: The heat from the deep-down recesses of the world (especially the recesses near the Balrog) would have been sufficiently warm enough for the growing of coffee beans. And the plants would have gotten their photosynthetic light from the gleaming mithril in the walls around them! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

As for the Hobbit's acquisition of the coffee, it probably came from Bree, via the Brandybucks, who traveled there on occasion.

The problem with that is Moria was no more, and it was the only place where Mithril had been found. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Ah yes, I can see it now...the Green Dwarves, growers of coffee and other fine subterranean products, ridiculed by the dwarves of gems and mithril, but good workers nonetheless.

Somehow, that just doesn't work. The Southrons with their slaves harvesting the beans on huge plantation-type farms owned by wealthy sahibs seems much more coherent and fitting.

Mr B-W,

How about this? Coffee wasn't the only anachronistic reference in the Shire, especially in the Hobbit. What about potatoes, tobacco, chimneys (not invented till the middle ages), clocks, Sam's gardening shears, hobbit mantlepieces, umbrellas, instruments like viols and clarinets that the Dwarves played? Even stirrups are questionable. There's also my two favorites--the dragon fireworks that "passed like an express train" and Sam's reference to "fish and chips." Bilbo's handkerchief could not have been known in England till the reign of Richard II, and his "silk waistcoat" would have to be imported to Europe from China in the fourteenth century (although there were sources of silk in the ancient world). Waste paper baskets were unknown in medieval Europe. The list goes on and on. I often wonder if the Shire had indoor plumbing courtesy of Arthur Crapper!!

Maybe all these came from the same place: Tolkien's fertile imagination, plus the tendency to describe the Shire with a slight Victorian/Edwardian patina. And maybe in some cases, Tolkien was dealing with Westron words that didn't have an exact English equivalent!! So he just translated them to the closest one he could find. Perhaps, coffee wasn't exactly what we think of today, but some kind of herbal drink that looked and functioned the same way.

Is anyone "bothered" by these anachronisms? It certainly doesn't bother me! One of the reasons I am fond of the Shire is that it has the feel of 19th century village life in England which makes it very different from every other place in Middle-earth. And the anachronisms are part of that.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Oops! Good point, Elrian!

Hmmm. Oh! I know! Maybe the Green Dwarves that The Silver-shod Muse mentioned had found their own Balrog to help them out (in whatever part of the world they were from). And maybe they had mithril, too, but were just uninterested in it. (Yes! That's it!) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

During the Civil War, the Confederates desperately sought a suitable coffee substitute. Dried and/or parched sweet potato, peas, okra seeds, hemp seeds (my vote), and rye were all thought to be pretty close to the real thing. Since the above could all be considered fine Shire agricultural products, I'd have to say that there's no telling what them Hobbits were drinkin'!

Since we wouldn't want to consider Hobbits to be having dealings with the Enemy, perhaps a source of the "real Rio" would be the Kingdom of Dor-en-Ernil. It's far enough south to grow coffee, and with the topography, they could even have "mountain grown" beans.

Unless...could it be that Isengar Took, the first Hobbit to go to sea, was actually doing a little blockade running? Always wondered how the Tooks came by their dough.

Anyway, for the sake of the Hobbit's sleep patterns, I hope they had decaf. (Note the time of this post. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

But always remember....this is a fictional world (unless, like me, you believe it really did happen, but it's all at least 5,000 years ago, and there was the whole "Dagor Dagorath" thingy which erased all sign of earlier civilization....but that's another story), so they may not have evolved as far (or as fast) as us in some areas....personally, I think it's the sign of a greater civilization: they're at least 5 centuries more advanced in domestic instruments than weapons [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

I think the coffee mentioned in the Hobbit is malt coffee for I simply can`t imagine them (especially the dwarfs) to know real coffee.

Actually, tea doesn't grow too well in temperate regions either. Like silk-making, the idea was imported from China, and the leaves are grown in Africa and Asia. In fact almost every aspect of the Hobbits' life is an anachronism; but for me that adds to its appeal.

In wartime Germany, they used to drink ersatz coffee, which was made from acorns. Perhaps that's what Bilbo gave to Thorin's company, although he hated guests if it was. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I personally think coffee is nasty and only drink it occasionally with a LOT of sugar and cream.

HMMM you know dear Barrow Wight I have wondered the same thing. I don't know if ot was a "substitute" or the real thing. However, I think that the South farthing may have been warm enought in summer for a little bit of coffee.

Out of curiosity, Is there any evidence that supports that hobbits had indoor plumbing???

Probably not...they were too busy with their silver spoons and gardens.

From www.coffee.com:
These regions would correspond with Mordor and Harad. That's a long way to go for a cup of Java, but its possible that a wealthy hobbit such as Bilbo Baggins could afford such a luxury. I just worry that such purchases ultimately benefitted the Dark Lord and the Haradrim as it filled their coffers.

It wouldn't be the first time such vices help the wicked. Today's newspaper had an article explaining how a substantial amount of money spent on drugs on the streets of America has made its way into the hands of the terrorists that threaten the nation.

Boycott drugs and coffee now!!!

look now i will have my dope and coffee barrowight! have you ever been to louisiana? we grow dope and coffee in our closets! it's not to terribly hard ( the dope not the coffee) isn't hard to grow in a closet. my great grandpa( god rest his soul) taught me how to do both because my house stands where his farm was when it was legal to grow The Weed. " the plants where so tall and pretty then in the summer the city folk would come an cut um dowm 20 dalla a bushel." sam gamgee if he were a gardener could EASILY grown both. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Just so you know, drug talk is not permitted here on the Downs, even when it seems to be on topic. But we can continue this discussion by addressing the indoor growing of plants.

Unless I'm mistaken, indoor plant growing needs proper UV lighting, which I am quite sure hobbits were not technologically capable of. Regardless, to grow a plant indoors still requires a seed or original plant, so we would be back to asking where coffee might have grown in Middle-earth, if it did at all.

Those plants-of-which-we-will-no-longer-speak did not spontaeneously spring in your oh-so-fertile closet. 'Nuff said about that.

Gee, Mr. Barrow-wight, I would think that if the topic of drugs is taboo, surely the topic of international politics would be. But since you brought it up I must counter your comments:

by suggesting you read Noam Chomsky's books, starting with Chomsky on MisEducation and then 9-11. The cause of terrorism against (and by!) the U.S. is far more complicated than most people think. Viggo's Perceval Press website recommends Chomsky's books.

Better for now if you buy fair-trade coffee from companies such as Bridgehead.

Hope no one is overly offended. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. - John Lennon

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

Just to clarify, my post was in no way serious and required no rebuke or suggested reading. And since I've no idea what you were getting at, I'm going wait for another cofee post. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

I completely agree with Sharon.

I make this post in honor of Estelyn. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And from coffeeuniverse.com (a bit of a biased source, one might say):

This reminds me of a thread I read some months ago here, that the journey from the Shire to Minas Tirith is actually a journey from Edwardian/Victorian England south to Renaissance Venice and thence back to Bronze Age battles. So, it is not much of a jump across the Mediterranean to what would be Harad/ Ethiopia. Thus, it would appear that both Child and Gandalf can have their coffee and drink it too. Now, if only I can find a picture of a coffee cup from an Anglo-Saxon barrow .... ;)

Bethberry

How's this, Bethberry?

Look what I dug up:

http://www.evileyes.com/images/gifts_mug.jpg

http://www.evileyes.com/gifts.html

Barrow Wight:

As for the filtering of coffee into the Shire ultimately benefitting the coffers of Mordor and Harad, a quite legitimate worry indeed, and another unfortunate symptom of Arda marred. However, let's say said coffee was coming in through Saruman. His tendency would be I think to prefer dealing with Hobbit merchants (and through a layer or two of go-betweens at that) who didn't ask too many questions about where coffee is grown as they traded Longbottom Leaf for those oh-so-exotic aromatic beans of morning brew.

Child of the 7th Age: I'm also fond of the anachronistic "passed like an express train". One can always point to poetic license based on the phrase being a simile. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~~ Gandalf the Grey

Bilbo, being the fabulously wealthy son of the fabulous Beladonna Took, could afford to import whatever he liked from wherever he liked.

Those below the coffee-importing--social-- strata drank a brew made from Roasted Chicory Root. (Geh!)

--Helen

A much less fun answer sould be that when he was writing that chapter, Tolkien hadn't even realised taht elves would show up or that Gondolin's sowrds would make an entry... so he didn't yet know when he was writing about.

red, I have no idea what you're talking about! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] (But I'm posting anyway because I think what I have to say is much too interesting to the general public to be relegated to a private message...)
[This post will self-destruct when the joke has worn off - which should be fairly soon! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

the indoor growing of plants barrow wight is slightly more ancient than UV lights. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] sorry about the dope thing didn't know. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] anyway on the subject ( as i have wandered off it) coffee can be grown without UV lights it just takes extreme patience. i'm not sure how but it's been done. oh and i knew a guy with a coffee cup that had momento mori ( remember you will die) on it. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Ah! I thought of the Saruman connection, but he was not interested in the Shire until 1418.

I say the dwarves are clearly responsible for the trade in coffee, as they were the only ones who travelled the east road and had dealings with Hobbits. Many, if not most, dwarves would not ask questions about a luxury item so profitable.

Here's a theory, one you may dispute:

Coffee originated in Numenor, a gift from the Valar.

It's cultivation was freely taught to the people of Far Harad prior to the time of Ar-Pharazon as a form of economic aid.

The latter kings of Numenor however goosed the profit-margin in coffee trade (Dwarves, due to their hard-working nature, particularly prized it) by first having prisoners work the fields, and later slaves. Unfortunately.

The cultivation of coffee in smaller quantities and of lesser quality was also found not far from the city of Osgiliath, in what is now known as Ithilien.

After the fall of Numenor, the trade in coffee fell off dramatically, though the fields near Osgiliath continued to produce the luxury item for the private use of those of the royal lineage of Gondor. The drinking of coffee became a habit of kings, much like the wearing of cloth died indigo in our own medieval history. This habit of coffee being a 'royal' drink was carried on later by the stewards of Gondor (whether they liked the beverage or no), though it was abandoned in the North kingdom. Citizens of Gondor would have been very surprised to say the least at Bilbo's casual use of the beverage for guests. The very fact he had it at all would have stunned them.

But dwarves continued to trade in lands far to the east, and the formerly slave-worked fields of Numenor were for a time worked by free men of the south, who traded their crop to the northeast of the known lands of Middle Earth.

The risks in trading in those lands were rather high for the dwarves, but the coffee trade, cheap and plentiful in the Far East and South, expensive and rare in Middle Earth, was exceptionally profitable. It was relatively light, travelled easily. Passed as ordinary beans to the ignorant, thus avoiding all kinds of taxes, tarrifs and thievery. More than one dwarf expedition, robbed of their gold by bandits, came through with their coffee profits intact. So no dwarf caravan from the east failed to include this "insurance policy."

Sadly, as the power of Sauron grew, the coffee fields were once again worked by slaves, and did in fact finance his war. We must note however that though the trade did not altogether disappear, the proliferation of orcs in the East - due to Sauron - crippled the trade, and Sauron had little profit from Middle Earth because of it.

This is why Bilbo in the late 1300s had coffee, but Frodo in 1418 never mentioned it.

The coffee drinkers in Dale and the Lonely Mountain suffered most. That's when the acorn, chicory and other substitutions were tried, to little effect. The defeat of Sauron was greeted with relief for many reasons.

-Maril

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

Wow, Maril! Bravo! Where did you get your info? The "Deeping-Wall Street Journal"? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

That's beautiful, Maril! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] The gift of coffee itself may have been a consoling substitute for those stirring, earthy ent-draughts. Knowing the entwives were gone or fled, or soon would be (can't remember the exact chronology) and the ents withdrawn deep into the forest, Yavenna took pity on the free peoples and sent coffee berries forth into middle earth to rekindle the hearts of man, dwarf and hobbit.

I smell RPG (and the aroma of slowly roasting Far Harad beans).

Your speculations could also provide the basis for a new theory regarding the Paths of the Dead. The Oathbreakers: restless spirits or deprived coffee drinkers?

You all miss the evidence. It is before your very eyes. Elementary, my dear Tooks.

Study: 'Caffeine'. An anagram is "Fine face". The fairest of face were of course the Vanyar, as is explicit in their name. This foolproof argument should lead such razor-sharp minds as yours to discern the true bean-exporters of Middle Earth.

Interesting, Rimbaud! But how would Bilbo have acquired it? Bilbo didn't know any Elves -- let alone High Elves -- and Elves and Dwarves hated each other (at least at that time, I thought). We need more to your story. (Please? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

For now, Maril has given us the most complete history!

RPG?

Too good!

After all this talk of canonicity, canon-friendliness, etc etc-- Here's a place where Tolkien's canon gives you (and perhaps therefore us) express permission to go wild.

Maril, I'll definitely take a cup. I'm not normally a coffee drinker except on special occasions-- and this strikes me as one. Heavy on the soymilk, please. Er sorry, too strange. Here, I just happen to have some. Sugar too, please. Thank you.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] The dwarves will gladly give all of their left-over soy-coffee substitutes. Contrary to what vegetarians seem to think, soy cannot be made into anything. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Gosh, now I'm tempted to RPG.. what is it you liked about this idea? Do you really want to be part of a dwarven merchant caravan to parts unknown, with sketchy maps, and word of mouth from boasting (and thus only slightly trustworthy) dwarf acquaintances? Why, you could get lost, wander into strange customs... and how on earth would you talk a band of dwarves into letting you join them anyways?

Actually, coffee also happens to be one of the items in a certain pony cart belonging to a certain Podo Cotton in a certain RPG called "On Patrol." Podo first showed up at the Trade Inn at Sarn Ford. As it happens, the RPG ended before anyone searched the pony cart newly arrived from Podo's recent merchant excursion "away South."

However, the grounds ("coffee grounds") have been laid for further development of this subplot in future RPGs ... * insert mood music to build suspense *

Coincidental indeed. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Maril:

Your RPG idea sounds intriguing as well, and I look forward to reading, and possibly participating in, anything you come up with. The more the merrier, eh? * good-natured bow *

Gandalf the Grey

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

Easy. Play a dwarf, and start out with them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

If you're starting a RP, I look foward to it.

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Ransom ]

Consider the possibility that coffee, like the good leaf from the Shire, was being intercepted by Saruman for his own uses, but not for himself to drink personally. Why not? One of Saruman's powers that he uses to great effect is the power of that oily-smooth voice. If he was wired, talking too fast, perhaps stumbling or stuttering over words (come on, don't pretend like you don't know the type), the effect on the hearers would be greatly diminishedm as you might well imagine.

That leaves open the question of why Saruman would require all the coffee that he apparantly intercepted or co-opted fromt he trade routes. I have a theory to propound which might hold water. I submit it for the cross-examination of the forum.

Consider the Uruk-Hai. They needed to have exceptional strength, superhuman speed, and long endurance for the tasks for which Saruman planned to use them. What better than massive amounts of caffeine, extracted directly from the coffee beans? You thought that was white paint they were slapping on each other in the movie? I say it was pure white caffeine powder in a base which would allow it not only to stick to the skin, but to be absorbed thru the skin slowly, a sort of timed-release caffeine. Remember how they reacted in a sort of ecstatic frenzy when it was slapped onto them? Transcutaneous caffeine infusions would explain that behavior quite nicely.

It is also well known that caffeine is a pain-reliever (significant amounts of caffeine are components of Excedrine, BC Powders, and the "migraine" formulas of many common over-the-counter pain relievers) excessive amounts of caffeine might render a person (or an orc, for that matter) almost impervious to pain. Witness the Uruk-hai Lurtz who was impaled by Aragorn's sword thru the midsection, but merely sneered at Aragorn and pulled the sword deeper to show his indifference to the injury.

The decaffeinated beans left over from Saruman's uses were then distributed back thru the trade channels leading to places that Saruman planned to invade, such as Rohan and Minas Tirith -- the depression and despondency of King Theoden can probably be traced directly to the fact that he was unwittingly being served decaf until Hama retrieved some *real* coffee from Wormtongue's chest (along with Theoden's sword). If Denethor had had some of the better arabica beans instead of Saruman's brew, he might have been able to overcome his suicidal depression and lead his people again.

I leave the further study of this topic to clearer heads than my own...I need to go make me a good cup o' joe...

Eh, I can be a bit slow o nthe uptake some days, but-- if Saruman is waylaying the coffee shipments, then isn't that tantamount to an act of war?

General Maril?

(fumbles in closet looking for sword)

Ai, Sarumans trechary ran deep. If we can trace Theodens depression to Saruman's coffee then certantly Denethor's madness was a result too. Denethor looked into the palantir. He must have seen the coffe of Saruman. The desire for the gift of cofee overcame him. He eventually turned mad because of it. Poor Denethor had no chance.

Sounds to me like this coffee shortage is escalating to an international catastrophe. Gandalf is off on one of his immportant tangents-- something about some halfling and a golden bauble of some sort-- leaving the weighty matters of world peace and free trade to us. (Strapping on backpack)

Ho, Maril, give us some rousing speech or enlightening discourse.

(struggles with sword-belt...) Drat, backwards.