What if Gollum had lived?
Once the One Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Mount Doom, if we imagine that Gollum did somehow survive and was brought to safety (either by himself or though the help of the eagles), to what fate would Gandalf have sentenced Gollum to? Is it conceivable that Gollum would be allowed to live freely but under the watchful guard of the Wood Elves again? Or even a guest further down the line at Bag End? Could Gollum have been ordered to be sent over the sea at the end with Frodo & Company, given that Gollum was also a Ring Bearer? I am assuming Gollum would have committed suicide once he saw the Ring was gone, but still, you just never know.
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Gandalf: Oops, almost forgot Gollum. Quick Gwaihir, fly up to Sammath Naur and see if you can fish the little guy out.That's how I see it happening, anyway. |
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"Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust." |
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Did Gandalf or anyone else have a duty of care to Gollum in the event he did survive? He did commit some serious crimes, such as murdering Deagol, and biting off the finger of Frodo, as well as the attempted murder of Frodo and Sam. But the influence of the Ring was obviously what Gandalf would have thought was the reason Gollum behaved as he did, and was therefore not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility. Maybe a short retirement in the woodland realm under the care of the Wood Elves would be more realistic that getting Bed & Breakfast at Bag End.
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And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.
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Would Gollum, being a previous Ring Bearer, be commanded to sail with the Company over the sea? Provided the old rascal could contain himself, tied up but treated with care?:D
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It's been explained many times that the Ring enhances what is already there enroute to corruption. He was a rodentile muck-snipe who (...ahem...) commited murder the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring. |
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Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?. As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades. |
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So spoke Aragorn. And Gollum wasn't anyone's responsibility. Yes, I think Frodo might have offered Gollum some help, if anyone did. But he would have been the only one, and it wouldn't have been out of any sort of obligation. Quote:
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"Deserves death? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too hasty to deal out death in judgement fearing for your own safety. Not even the Wise can see all ends." and "I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured ere he dies, but there is a chance of it." Remember that it is said of Gandalf/Olorin "He dwelt in Lorien [the dwelling of Irmo, master of visions, in Aman, not the forest near Moria] but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience." Pity and patience would have ruled Gandalf's dealings with Gollum had he, somehow, survived the destruction of the Ring. |
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Wormtongue never wore the Ring, and neither did the Witchking. Also, as the fate of Middle Earth was so tightly linked with the company of Frodo, Sam AND Gollum, all three having been Ring bearers, it poses a question if Gollum did indeed warrant further examination by the hosts in the Undying Lands. They certainly would have been very keen to hear of, and even see and speak with Gollum in his venerable and harmless state more than almost anyone else coming to see them from Middle Earth. Gollum was one of the very, very few unlucky creatures to have ever been brought before the seat of Sauron, and quizzed. As the Ring finder, Ring bearer, and indirectly the Ring destroyer, he may well have got the nod to be on the boat (in chains incase he tried something funny, still uncured and tormented by the shame of losing the Ring forever, hopefully not insane though). I don't think he could have gone willingly though, if he still had the ability to think straight and reason. He would also have to be on suicide watch, as he had no reason to live anymore, and I can't see how anyone could force feed him survive if he chose to starve himself. Quote:
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Gollum, on the other hand, began his possession of the Ring with murder, and then used it to spy on his relatives and learn their secrets. Gandalf also felt sadness for the fall of Saruman, but we don't see him offering the latter a seat on the boat. |
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It is these folk that would also put Gollum on trial. |
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Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China. |
Moonraker, this is a quote from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that illustrates what I've been trying to say:
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Again, Gollum was deserving of pity, but had he lived he would only have earned freedom to go and live (or die) as he pleased. Frodo might have offered to care for him, but I think it certain any offer of help would have been refused. |
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Probability is not the same as speculation. Hitler died, probably by suicide, but I do not recall that as being presented as speculation by most historians. When the evidence for a case is compelling but not absolute, probability (likelihood) comes into the equation. Speculation is implying an outcome that may have no evidence whatsoever and is just a random guess. |
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I suppose if the Valar had the ability to see the doings of Gollum from afar a bit like how Saruman used the Palantir to look deeper into Middle Earth, then they may not have cared to see Gollum in Valinor. I have no knowledge of what dimensions of power the Valar possessed beyond being more powerful than the Maia. Galadriel used her Mirror for this purpose, she may have had more knowledge of Gollum than she would care to admit. Which also brings me to ask why Gandalf didn't ask to use the Mirror more often? Was it just not as reliable as a Palantir? If it was of no use, then why did Galadriel ask Frodo to look into it?
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Do you advise me to look? asked Frodo.Why does she invite him to use it then? That's a good question. At a guess, I'd say she was trying to learn more about what kind of person the Ringbearer really was. |
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/thread |
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Is there any chance at all that Gollum could truly heal once the Ring was destroyed? Bilbo recovered well once he let go of the Ring. Frodo likewise.
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