The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php)

- Novices and Newcomers (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10)

- - Frodo the failure (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=3088)

Frodo the failure

Some here have suggested that Frodo was a Christ-like figure. I disagree. As much as I love him, he failed. He failed to let go of the ring at Mount Doom. He claimed it as his own, and it was only by luck, exept that of course it had nothing to do with luck, that the ring fell in and took Gollum with it. Even Frodo was found a sinner in the end. Don't get this wrong, he is my hero! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

On Christ-like Tolkien characters: many of the characters in LotR have some Christ-like qualities, but remember that none of them are perfect. Frodo, Sam, and Gandalf all have some Godly qualities. Of these characters, Sam comes closest to being truely Christ-like.

I love Frodo too, though! It's a good thing Iluvitar was watching over it all, even though no one realized it.

Why do you think that about Sam, Rosa?

Well, i never thought of Frod o of=r any of the others as being Christ like. I just can't compare Christ and the characters.
Remember though, we all have good qualities which some would call "god-like", i think the characters you mentioned just had good personalities. (only my opinion, don't hit me!)

OOps that should say "Frodo or" not "Frod o of=r" i should look at what i type!

Starbreeze - Looks like you're having the kind of day I have had! I am having a heck of a time trying to type anything coherent!
I agree with you, Rosa!

Another subject where Tolkien himself received much correspondence. He answered it (most eloquently, as only he can) with some of the following ripostes:

Quote:

Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power for so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision. (Already Frodo had been unwilling to harm the ring before he set out, and was incapable of surrendering it to Sam.)

However this letter (No. 181) goes on to say:

Quote:

But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is acheived by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly* betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end - but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one could have done for Frodo!
By a situation created by 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden. He was very justly accorded the highest honours ......

The second quote does indeed indicate a deeply religous undertone to this crucial scene. However Tolkien does also indicate the involvement of a 'higher power' steering the situation :

Letter 191

Quote:

I think you will see that not only was it quite impossible for him to surrender the Ring, in act or will, especially at its point of maximum power, but that this failure was adumbrated from far back. He was honoured because he had accepted the burden voluntarily and had then done all that was within his utmost physical and mental strength to do.

This letter also goes on to say:

Quote:

No, Frodo 'failed'. It is possible that once the ring was destroyed he had little recollection of the last scene. But one must face the fact:the power of Evil in the world is not finally resistable by incarnate creature, however 'good'; and the Writer of the Story is not one of us.

Now this 'Writer of the Story' is the real answer to the question as Tolkien later goes on to reveal in Letter 192 to Amy Ronald,

Quote:

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined place and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'† (as one critic has said). A third (the only other) commentator on the point some months ago reviled Frodo as a scoundrel (who should have been hung and not honoured), and me too. It seems sad and strange that, in this evil time when daily people of good will are tortured, 'brainwashed', and broken, anyone could be so fiercely simpleminded and selfrighteous.

*not quite 'certainly'. The clumsiness in fidelity of Sam (@ Cirith Ungol) was what finally pushed Gollum over the brink, when about to repent.

†Actually referred to as "the One" [Eru Illuvatar]

So, if it hadn't been for the finger of God prodding Gollum up the slope of Orodruin all would've been in vain ... Gollums the real hero!! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Hehe, Truely spoken. Gullom was the hero!!!

As much as I'm a big fan of Frodo. Gullom was the finally step in the ring's destruction.

Did Gandalf not say, Gullom woud have a bigger part to play in it's story?

And Gullom only ridded the world of the Ring BECAUSE he'd wanted it back and was happy to have it back and slipped from the cliff! Ah the topic of greed!

He also fell into the Cracks of Doom because Frodo told him (as the Ringbearer) that if he ever touched him again, he would be cast into the Fires of Mt. Doom. So, a part of that 'Other' had to be Evil, if by the power of the One, Gollum fell into the chasm from whence it was made. Which brings back full circle to the notion of how/why does Evil serve Good? An extremely Christian notion.

Jeez...I actually said 'whence.' Verily, I did, I did! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Hang on Glenethor. If you read RotK you will see that it was accually the ring that swore that Gollum would be thrown into the fire if he touched the ring(which the ring refers to as 'me')
And remebering the ring it was the ring which made all these charicters corupted. They all, including Gollum were ok guys exept for the fact that the ring existed. That rotton piece of gold made Frodo do the things he did.
If you hang on a sec I'll get my book and prove it's the ring that talks to Gollum.

This is in RotK, chapter-Mount Doom,page-245-246

Quote:

...and before it stood a stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire(the ring). Out of the FIRE there spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone and trouble me (the ring) nomore!(after 500 years the ring must be tired of Gollum)If you touch me (the ring) you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

The ring must have known that it had almost taken over Frodo and would not be destoyed by Frodo. So it didn't want Gollum to do anything rash.
Why han't it spoken before?
Well maybe the ring needed to borrow a voice since rings don't normaly posess voices. And in order to do that it needed enough control over someone.
What do you think about that.

Yes, I think we can all come to agreements that the RING is EVIL!!

#22!
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Rosa, I respectfully disagree. You didn't use the whole quote of the passage. What you cite is Sam's perception of the interaction. The voice in the preceding paragraph is clearly Frodo's. It is a bit ambiguous, but that does not negate the fact that a significant theme of Tolkien's (and certain branches of Christianity) is that Evil is subordinate to Good, and Good will always conquer. It is an age old question, which is beyond the scope of this debate (don't want to get another thread locked down, now, do we? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) that I think Tolkien deals with, especially in the character of Gollum. As Gandalf says, in both the book and the movie, 'my heart tells me that Gollum still has some part to play for good or ill.' Now, I am a Christian, nominally C of E, and I find this question as fascinating as it is valid: Whence came Evil? Many argue that Evil doesn't exist, that it is all in the realm of psychopathology. I disagree, and my academic background is in psychology. Evil is real, but the mystery is, why does God allow it to? There are a million answers to that question.

In any case, we have different opinions, and that is ok, eh?
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Jeez, I love that movie!
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

There is an extensive debate on whether the Ring or Frodo spoke on Orodruin in a thread called "Frodo or the Ring?" found in the Books forum. Feel free to update that thread or import arguments from there to here.

Similarly, there is a thread about whether Frodo failed or not. In my view, the quotes provided that Frodo did not fail. He took the quest as far as was humanly (Hobbitly?) possible. He could not throw the Ring into his own fireplace; how could he be expected to destroy it months later after experiencing great suffering and the enhanced influence of the Ring? This is why he was given companions. To assist him not only in getting the Ring to Mordor but also to help him exercise the will to destroy it. Unfortunately, the breaking of the Fellowship eliminated his companions (except for Sam who was likely the one person who would not be able to engage in a conflict with Frodo) leaving him on his own. He went as far if not farther than anyone else could have gone. How is this a "failure"?

Quote:

Originally posted by Glenethor:
<STRONG>He also fell into the Cracks of Doom because Frodo told him (as the Ringbearer) that if he ever touched him again, he would be cast into the Fires of Mt. Doom.</STRONG>

Interesting, I didn't think of that!

Tolkien says that there isn't one definite Christ-like figure, but each of the heros display Christ-like qualities at times. Frodo, Sam, Merry & Pipin, Legolas & Gimli, Aragorn, Boromir's death, and even Gollum at times.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mithadan:
<STRONG>He went as far if not farther than anyone else could have gone. How is this a "failure"?</STRONG>

"Do or don't do, there no trying is"
Yoda to Luke Skywalker

Anyway, I just wanted the topic to attract attention [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I love Frodo, and I loved him most when he put the ring in his finger at the Cracks of Doom... explain this if you can. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Before I continure on the topic, I just have to clear this up: Rose Cotton and Rosa Underhill are two different hobbits. One is "Rose" (as in "Rosie") the other is "Rosa" (as in "Rosamunda"). Thank you. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Quote:

Why do you think that about Sam, Rosa?

The reason Sam is the most Christ-like, in my opinion, is because he is what Christ mostly was: a servant. And he does the things Christ would/did do, but to a lesser degree. Christ carried our burdens/sins, and Sam carried Frodo,(who carried the greater burden, really, but that's not my point). When we can't go on our own will or strength anymore, God picks us up, like Sam did for Frodo. And God/Jesus both have very profound senses of humor like Sam, in lesser degree, has.

There are more, but I'm really tired today and can't think of them all. (These similarities between Christ and Sam are what started my new WWSD? campaign. I don't know what Jesus would do, but I have a pretty good idea what Sam would do. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])