Tolkien's world is clearly set in the age of mail- everyone wears it, including the most advanced smiths in the world, the Dwarves.

From this I would have to conclude that Middle-earth, just as it had not invented gunpowder, had not invented the metallurgy needed to produce iron ingots bigger than a bloomery yield- about 2 - 2.5 lbs (.8-1.2 kg). Enough for a sword or an axe-head, but not anything more. Note how early-medieval helmets like Sutton Hoo are made of multiple pieces riveted together?

Our ancestors didn't start to wear plate armor until the second half of the 14th century not because they were stupid, or that no-one though of it, but because it wasn't possible until they could produce iron ingots big enough to make breastplates et cetera out of. Even at the end of the Third Age, Middle-earth wasn't there yet.

Chain mail is the only thing Tolkien ever mentioned directly. No plate ever. Never. The Dwarves were still manufacturing chain well into the 3rd Age (their specialty, such as Frodo's mithril corselet).

Since I don't feel like typing copious descriptive passages, our buddy Michael Martinez at middle-earth.xenite.org has a quite all-encompassing overview of Tolkien's armorial preferences:

https://middle-earth.xenite.org/how-...ndorian-armor/

The only thing Mr. Martinez neglects to mention is far earlier descriptions of armor v. chain by Tolkien in the story of Eöl the Dark Elf (although I'm quite sure he was not of African descent, but merely saturnine) and his invention of the meteoric metal galvorn:

The description leaves room for conjecture.

The only possible counter-evidence, or at least the one snippet which has been thus proffered, is the "polished vambrace" with which Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is still alive.

That said, there was a considerable period during the Age of Mail when men would augment a hauberk with bits of solid plate, usually at the elbows (couters) and knees (poleyns). And since the mail-wearing Rohirrim especially valued "coats of bright rings out of the Southlands" (meaning Gondor); since Pippin's Citadel Guard armor was mail, and Denethor wore mail under his robes, it appears that Gondor just as Rohan wore mail (in fact, if Gondor made plate, surely the Rohirrim would have been eager to import it; for that matter, if the smelting technology existed in Gondor the Rohirrim and the Dwarves would have swiftly adopted it).

Oh, horrors!
 

Worser and worser


Amazon’s Rings of Power Script & Audition Videos - See What They’re Doing to Tolkien!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHYvpL4KwY

In addition to Imrahil's "bright-burnished vambrace that was upon his arm", there is this:
"'Alas! My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck. How is it with you?'"
and:
"He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword."
So, scale armour (and a possibly a plate armour collar).
(Various mentions such as "metal wrought like fishes' mail and shining like water in the moon", "robed to the middle in mail like the scales of blue and silver fishes" also bring to mind scale armour).

There is also this from Fall of Gondolin:
"Now this great work was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the
quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail, byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields."
Greaves as well as vambraces.
Thus some indication of ancillary pieces of plate armour, as well as scale or lamellar armour.

It strikes me that Amazon's marketing department (and its paid shills like theonering.net) have adopted a very interesting strategy: insult the fanbase and call them names. Innovative, certainly.

All shall love me an... or I will disparage you!
Even back in the heyday of the varied Tolkien forums, I considered TORN a trash site.

Back in the Jackson-movie years, I thought it gave too much of the game away that TORN's onsite paid ads were almost all from WETA Workshop and other PJ/New Line-connected enterprises.

But now the site has no advertising at all- which raises very interesting questions about where their funding is coming from (even beyond accepting an all-expense-paid junket to London and Oxford combined with an exclusive private preview and meet-and-greet: an offer of Rings of Power from the Lord of Gifts which I am afraid other, better people like Corey Olsen also stooped to accept)

'It's like some bizarre fan fascination. Tolkien never says female dwarves have beards.'

Did you catch his latest episode of Other Minds and Hands (#10) where he gets all excited about the "Harfoots" and how maybe they could be further east in Rhun and migrate west and become Gollum's people in the lands around the Anduin?

Errrrr- Smeagol was a Stoor.

What I thought immediately upon hearing that...
Unfortunately he has comments turned off on his videos.

I had been making time to respond* in some of his 'live chats' but missed this one.

* In #6 he doubled down on his beards claim, with a 'Tolkien stated dwarf women don't have beards' and I was able to (repeatedly) demand the quote, while his 'students' were jumping in defending him, trying to change the subject and the usual bullwub.
Olsen himself did not respond, but in #8 he seems to have tentatively walked back his absolute assertions by, sort of, acknowledging it to be his opinion.
I will be interested to see, if it comes up again, whether he continue with that or goes back to the 'Tolkien said'...

Turning off comments is always a pregnant indication.

Morfydd Clark (Galadriel):
"Rings of Power is more of a message to the patriarchy, and the old cultural guard. A message that says we are no longer going to play fiddle to a white man's vision. This uses elements of Tolkien and his story, but focuses on a sociopolitical statement of power and unity."

Discuss.

Sounds very close to Erendis' comments on Numenorean men to her daughter, found in Unifinished Tales. Also very appropriate for the woman playing Galadriel, whose Valinor plotline in particular goes "men who think they can have whatever they want SUCK". (Mostly Uncle Feanor, admittedly.) And strong shades of Eowyn, too, with her speech about how the men think it's their right to go off and fight, secure in the knowledge that the women will just wait and die if they fail.

I don’t think the white man in the quote is Tolkien; the Numenor story in particularly is deeply critical of the colonising, "civilised" Numenoreans. I think it's a statement that, in a part of the story Tolkien wrote very little about (and particularly, very little that they seem to be allowed to use!), they're rejecting the idea that Other Minds And Hands must always be white, Anglo-Saxon men's hands.

hS

Some context, from Amazon Studios' 'Inclusion Policy':

Not a great Inclusion Policy, if I'm honest; they could technically fulfill it by having a black lesbian in a wheelchair say "hi!". But that's what you expect from Amazon.

Tolkien, of course, does all of these in the Silmarillion: Galadriel is distinctly gender-nonconforming, Sador Labadal is noted for both his disability and his loyalty, and there are multiple Swarthy Men (including some who aren't even evil, which I note isn't required under Amazon's policy). In fact, if you count Morwen as gender-nonconforming (she takes what the Hadorians would definitely call a man's role), the tale of Turin has all three of these in spades! (I'm not even going to mention the various male characters who love Turin above everything in the world...)

hS

Yes; I think strict quotas would produce better television.

On nomenclature:
This is an area which I thinks provides substantial evidence that this show is not "in good hands" at all, notwithstanding the comments of assorted podcasters whom Amazon lavishly junketed. Look at the names for their "Harfoot" protohobbits. It goes without saying that these names of Shire type would be linguistically impossible in the Second Age.

But it also seems at least as blatant, even if they want to roll with a conscious anachronism, that there is not a thought process involved with sufficient spark to understand even the nature of those names: just chopping and reassembling Brandybuck and Proudfoot- have these nimrods no idea where those names came from and why they are as they are? Was there no knife in the drawer sharp enough to go find a Warwick* telephone directory and pull some Hobbity names from the source?

Oh, yes- what the heck is a woman with the the Welsh name Bronwyn doing in Middle-earth?

*"West Midlands" (i.e. the Birmingham conurbation) wouldn't really work any more

I did a post on names in the Vanity Fair thread here and basically agree with you, though their Elvish language words (Arondir, Tirharad, possibly Carinë) are at least plausible.

In recent days the official Twitter account has been attaching more names to the posters. We have Harfoots "Poppy Proudfellow", "Marigold Brandyfoot", "Largo Brandyfoot", "Sadoc Burrows", and a mortal boy associated with Bronwyn named "Theo".

I feel like Theo has been discussed already - it looks like they've just grabbed a random Rohirric sound, just like they apparently did with Bronwyn. Really not fond of that.

The Harfoots are better. Largo is a bit weird to me because a song by that name was one of the first couple I learnt on the keyboard, but none of the forenames stands out as super unlikely (unlike Elanor/Nori). Burrows I think is straight from Tolkien, and Proudfellow fits right in with the English-language Hobbit names. It's kind of a shame their "bad in three different ways" name happens to be the lead Harfoot character.

Given how easy it is to get Hobbit names 'right' (literally just Flower Ruralphrase will do you), I don't think this indicates their name-game has gotten any better.

hS

The showrunners via the "Tolkien Professor" (OM&H 13), *Galadriel has PTSD. The "Tolkien Professor" says all her brothers (yes, though Amazon seems to be introducing a new brother) and her mother are dead.

Brothers? That's odd- because no matter which version of the Finarfinian genealogy you care to use, not one of them is mentioned in the Appendices, supposedly Amazon's only permitted source.

Finrod is:
"In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir."
App. B
"Noblest of all was the Lady Galadriel of the royal house of Finarfin and sister of Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond"
App. F

I'm not sure whether Olsen was repeating the show-runners justification for *Galadriel having PTSD, or giving his own justification (he came across as very supportive of PTSD *Galadriel). Either way, though, Earwen was not dead, and claiming that she was is troubling, especially for a self-styled "Tolkien Professor".

Amazon has the rights to all of LotR and The Hobbit.

I stand corrected. Still, there is no Appendices warrant for brothers, plural.

The Numenoreans have dropped, and hoooo boy. It looks like Numenor is straight from the Appendices - and that's not a good thing.

https://i.imgur.com/S74kKSO.png

Starting with the cast: second from left is Queen Regent[sic, sic, sic] Míriel. They gave her the accent in her name, but Regent? For her father? For her child? The first would just about work, the second is all wrong for Numenorean politics. Or do they just not know the word 'Regnant'? She shows up several times in the article in armour, at one point at the head of an army - which, I have to say, I'm all here for.

Front and centre in the image is Pharazôn, the Queen's counsellor. He is dramatically older than her, so I'm guessing the forced-marriage plot is off the table. The Appendices just say he usurped the sceptre, so they're likely doing that in a different way.

To the left is "Kemen", which is a Quenya word but can pass for Adunaic. He is Pharazon's son, so that's another strike against the marriage plot (he looks too old to be Miriel's kid, as has been suggested elsewhere). My guess is that he's gonna die to trigger his father's meltdown, but who knows?

Then on the right side of the image we have Team Faithful: Elendil, his daughter Eärien, and his son Isildur. Isildur is a young mariner; Elendil is also defined as a sea-farer. (Anarion, incidentally, is described as "off-screen".) I have no issue with Eärien: she fits neatly into the canon, and a stay-at-home woman character is something Tolkien used several times in his Numenor stories. I'm less happy with Elendil and Isildur being sailors and soldiers, rather than obvious nobility; but an early version of Isildur did talk about fighting in Pharazon's army, so there is canon justification.

Numenor is described as "opulent", a "seemingly idyllic paradise", but also as troublingly divided. It's confirmed that the ruling line are part-Elven, and the basics of the pro-Valar/pro-"independence" divide are discussed. So far so Tolkien, but it's bizarre that the article is claiming a coastal capital. They've literally used the map which shows Armenelos inland! I wonder whether the deep ravine we've seen leading to the city in the trailers is their solution to that? (To be fair, digging a canyon-deep canal in order to put a port in their capital would be very Numenorean.)

Perhaps the most irritating to some: there's a shot of Galadriel riding with Elendil on the Numenorean coast. :D My guess is that her "raft" sequence ends with her rescue by a Numenorean ship, rather than her being a deliberate visitor, but who knows at this point? Per the mini-trailer, this suggests her early plot is "worries about Orcs > gets on Swanship > falls in Sea > winds up on raft > taken to Numenor".

I'm getting a definite feeling that Galadriel is a major viewpoint character, and will be running around to the various plot areas to join in. So far, the story seems to have four locations: Eriador (the Lindon-Eregion-Moria plot, with Elrond linking them), Numenor (as discussed here), Tirharad (Bronwyn, Arondir, and Theo - judging by Theo's broken sword and Arondir's trailer archery, I'm guessing they encounter Evil), and the Harfoots ("HarFEET!"). Given that those can be glossed as North, West, South, and East, I guess that's pretty full coverage; and the Ents from the mini-trailer are right in the middle. :D

hS

Dear god, that breastplate! Have the costume designers never seen so much as a picture of real armor?

Chain mail (real chain, not what Frodo was portrayed as wearing in the first movie -- was that rayon?) is unattractive and jingles too much...

I am amused that everyone is ticked off about the show for their own different reasons. ^.^ Timelines, characters, languages, titles, armour... All of the above... There'll be something for every kind of fan... :D

I haven' been following any of the news since the trailer came out, but this picture made an odd impression on me for purely visual reasons. Isildur just looks very out of place in his simple clothing among these other finely dressed people. And I know this is just a photo shoot, but it's a little visually odd and was the first detail that caught my eye, before I figured out who is who. The second detail which caught my eye was the discordance in their expressions, leading to thoughts about their potential roles and attitudes in the story. Pharazon is very stern-looking, which is not inapropriate. His son seems a little bored, and I wonder of there is gonna be some filial slacking off. Miriel is smiling, for reasons I can't phathom - that doesn't fit as a representation of her role as subjugated queen. Did she successfully plot some Numenorian intigue? Is she not as unhappy here as I have imagined her to be in the book ?On the other side, Elendil is being very Aragorn-like, which is again not inappropriate. Isildur, like I said before, stands out as the only one in plain clothing and a pose that is even more relaxed and nonchalant than Pharazon's son, and a slight smile on his face - all of which creates the effect of cockiness or disrespect, not qualities I would generally attribute to Isildur but given the right spin could be used well. And finally Elendil's daughter, who is starring daggers and seems furious. And I know this is a generic photoshoot that means nothing, it's not an actual scene to analyze, but I can't help but interpret it on a gut level in the story context. And gut level interpretation is very discordant - these characters and emotions don't go together in this combinaion! So my overall superficial impression of the photo is "weird, for hard to explain reasons".

As a positive, I think I like their choice of costumes for Numenorian nobility (a right degree of pompous?), and the stone buildings in the background. They seem to have the right sort of "Atlantis" feel.

I just saw a trailer for the show, and now I am hooked. It didn't really say much about the storyline. Mostly it was a series of oneliners, epic scenery and grand music. It was however enough to get me exited.

Now I am ticked off because I can see no way around giving Jeff Bezos my money.

I've just done a rundown of this trailer in the other thread.

I do think that between the three trailers, we get a good overview of where the various characters start out:

- Galadriel believes there is still evil out there, and argues with Elrond about it. She then apparently gets on a boat to sail West, falls off the boat, is rescued by a raft, and then re-rescued to Numenor where she hangs out with Elendil. She may end up riding with Numenorean cavalry.

- Elrond is part of Galadriel's orc-hunting party, but doesn't believe there's anything to find. He's then sent to Khazad-dum, where the dwarves aren't too keen on him - but Durin IV seems more kindly inclined.

- Arondir is defending mortals against enemies who are definitely there. It certainly looks as though there's a slavery/prisoner arc in there, given the number of chains he hangs out with.

- Elendil appears to be pro-Pharazon at first; presumably meeting an Actual Elf will change this. (Note that an early version of Isildur was pro-Pharazon in Tolkien's drafts, before having a similar change of heart.)

- Nori and the Harfeet just want to be left alone, until some dude falls from the sky and starts being weird at them. Nori is his buddy. He might be Sauron, or he might be really obvious misdirection.

- And it's clear that there's substantial flashbacks to the First Age. 3-4 shots in the new trailer, plus at least one in the original - it may literally just be flashes/prologue, but it's definitely there.

hS

Mail is actually fairly quiet compared to plate armour (unless it is just an individual piece).

You can see some comparisons done here (start about 4 minute mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVCS_iatpXw

Isn't it interesting that this - thing - is scheduled to premiere on September 2, in other words marking the death of Tolkien?

And trying to bury him for good, you mean? ;)

Video game giant buys rights to ‘Lord of the Rings’ and ‘The Hobbit’
 

I apologize if others have already covered this, but I just came across a report at RT.com (which I can still access here in Taiwan, although I've heard that one cannot if living in the the U.S.). So, I'll just quote the whole thing here:

Grievously, sadly, disappointingly... yes.

I have been doing my absolute best to ignore all of this, but I'm finding it more and more difficult: it's everywhere.

When I first heard of Peter Jackson's planned films these many years ago, I was not in approval. For one thing, I simply wasn't interested in someone else's interpretation of Tolkien's work. Didn't need it.
For another, I thought that financial success would bring the Tolkien name to the attention of some who would be highly interested in the monetary possibilities of further excursions into Middle-earth, but lacked Jackson's basic respect for the source material.

Now, I see added to the mix a rabid desire to slash, burn, and remake whatever isn't considered "progressive" enough, be it too old, too traditional, or simply out of step with "modern" thinking. Some of the show personnel have said things that definitely support their thinking that way.

Tolkien's work is more important to me personally that any other printed work, save one Book that predates him considerably. I wanted him to be exempt from the trend befalling so many other loved and respected books and movies. But the last guardian of his legacy, Christopher, left us at last.

Do the Amazon writers and cast know that Tolkien conceived of his tales during some of the darkest days of the 20th Century? Do they know that Christopher read LOTR chapter by chapter while serving during WWII? I doubt they do, and even if so they certainly don't care.

I say all that to say this: all I can do about the thing myself is not to watch it. But perhaps, if enough people do likewise, and the thing is not a commercial success, the flood may be stemmed somewhat. Maybe they would think twice about committing huge sums of cash toward a bastardization of Tolkien's ideas that the man himself has no say over.

Please consider: if they do get their money out of this, there is no end of what might be done in Tolkien's name, until people have largely forgotten (if they ever even knew) the old books we all cherish.
Don't watch this. Don't enable more of the same. Teach them that Tolkien is different.

I'm watching Rings of Power
 

:smokin:

I'm watching Rings of Power, and likely going to enjoy it. It is in no way going to "destroy" Tolkien's works any more than Ralph Bakshi's or Peter Jackson's treatment of Lord of the Rings "destroyed" Tolkien's works. My books have been, are, and will be the same no matter what, and I will enjoy every reading I have of them.

All this rabid ranting and raving about it in some attempt to try and "destroy" Rings of Power is amusing to a point, and tiresome to be sure. It is nice that there are places on the internet that gets over the whole 'woke bs' mentality and gets on to discussing the show and the depth of the Second Age timeline of events.

If you hate it so bad, then boycott Amazon. Put your money where your mouth is. Good luck in your campaign to get others to do so. Me, I'm not out a cent because I watch other content on Prime and my wife uses the free shipping for a lot of stuff.

More than anything, what I resent about this "book that Tolkien never wrote" is its tired and tiresome genericism, its utter and complete lack of anything even resembling creativity or personality. We've all seen it all before, seen these characters, heard these lines:* it's Screen Factory Fantasy Product Sludge #9. If Tolkien is gorau glas, this is Cheez Whiz. The Tolkien branding fits it about as well as a Rolls-Royce grill on a VW Beetle (without the ironic humor). So before we ever even get to questions of weapons or costumes or skin color or actors-who-need-to-shut-up, we have already violated the First Commandment of Tolkien Adaptation: Thou shalt not suck.

So I'm not worried about Tolkien's books being "damaged" - except to the extent that a future generation might go "The Lord of the Rings?" You mean what that turgid, tawdry Amazon tripe was based on? No, thank you." But I'm certainly not going to waste my time watching it -- unless it's someday featured on MST3000...
__________________________________________________ ________
*The ones in the latest trailer are practically examples from the manual, 101 Portentous and Weighty-Sounding Declarations for Talentless Hack Screenwriters

That was humorous. Typical, but humorous. Unlike you, I think Rings of Power will introduce a lot of people to Tolkien's written works, much like what the PJ stuff did, and Bakshi did, and Bass-Rankin did, etc. etc. So what if they sucked, and this sucks. Seeing all the panties getting into a wad over a show that hasn't aired yet is rather telling of the people doing it more than what they are all in a twit about. :smokin: