*TTT - The Dead Marshes*
 

Pardon me for making the title look like one of Estelyn's threads, but since she changed AddictedtoRumil's Haldir thread to look like that I figured I could do it for the Dead Marshes. Presumptuous person that I am...<P>I've seen a slight smattering of mentions for this scene, but it doesn't have its own thread. What did you think? It was certainly different from the way I imagined it. It was darker and closer in my mind, and I didn't "smell" it in the movie like I did in the book. A little too much vegetation, you know? And the ghostly lights were replaced by a couple of flame spurts.<P>Thought the scenery disappointed me, the dead faces did not. They were ghastly, and what happened to Frodo when he fell in was quite creepy.<P>So that's my opinion, what about you?<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

I wasn't quite sure why they switched it from night to day, unless it's just that the dead faces wouldn't have been visible enough. The flames were a little disappointing; I was hoping very much to see the tricksy "little candles" in the mist, since the Dead Marshes are one of my favorite scenes (as my title would suggest ). Overall, though, the dead faces themselves and the effects when Frodo fell in were very, very creepy and everything that I'd hoped. And while I know that Frodo didn't fall in in TTT, it's interesting that in the drafts of TTT Tolkien had the Dead reaching out to grab Frodo and Sam, and also had them seeing visions of their own dead faces in there, so it wasn't a totally non-Tolkienesque touch. I rather liked it myself.

(Good call, Diamond, and congratulations on finding a location I missed!) I thought the Dead Marshes were a typical PJ playground - he does like the spooky effects, doesn't he? Although the scene with Frodo falling in and being rescued by Gollum (after Sam was rescued by Frodo in FotR) makes me wonder if there will be someone drowning and being rescued in RotK as well...

You know, that's right! Gollum pulling Frodo out of the water was reminiscent of Frodo saving Sam.<P>So, if I were to guess...I would say that Merry/Pippin falls into the water at Isengard and Pippin/Merry has to pull him out. Shall we make bets?

You're right, that was really close. Now I know why I was so surprised when it turned out to be Gollum pulling Frodo out - somehow my subconscious had decided that it must be Sam, paying Frodo back for the time that he pulled Sam out of the Anduin.<P>Can't really think of much water in ROTK; it would have to be Merry and Pippin if anyone. And alas, it would have to be poor old Pippin being rescued again, since Brandybucks like the water and it would be a bit strange if Merry didn't know how to swim. Unless Gimli falls into the water when the other arrive at Isengard, though pulling him out, especially in that armor, would be quite a task.<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

I did like the Dead Marshes scene, though I had always pictured them in my mind's eye as being more woodsy (like a Louisiana bog). But the more English "fen-y" look does make more sense.<P>And the fact that Gollum saved Frodo does work well, since it implies that Frodo "owes" Gollum for rescuing him and it binds him more to Gollum.

I've been thinking about it, and I realized one of the main things that was wrong with the atmosphere of the Dead Marshes. Besides what I already mentioned, it was the fact that they could see the dead bodies just by walking by. In the book you couldn't see them until you were looking right into the water.<P>So by having them visible from a distance it took away from the thrilling shock that I felt reading the book when Sam fell down and suddenly saw these dead faces that he didn't know were there until they were *right* there.<P>Even though the part with the dead elf opening its eyes and Frodo falling in an being surrounded by dead grasping bodies was quite creepy, I simply missed that feeling that I got the first time, when I didn't know that there were dead bodies until Sam did. It was just one of those "moments" that can't be recreated, because of the surprise and shock.<P>Seeing as I knew about the meaning behind the name Dead Marshes going into the movie, there was no chance of shock, but I think it would have helped to recreate it a little if it had been like the book in that it was darker and the bodies weren't visible from a standing position.<P>That and the fact that the flickering candles under the water weren't there.<P>Of course, I still can't wait to see it again.

Well.... I laughed. I thought it was hilarious. <BR>Where were the ghastly lights? I only saw some flames here and there. Definitely not scary.<BR>I know I've seen too many (really) dead people to be "impressed" and I know that it has to be kept PG but seriously, those dead faces didn't look dead. <BR>"All dead, all rotten". But they only looked like they were asleep. <BR>Except for when Frodo fell into the water and they all turned into something that looked like it had been ripped from "Ghostbusters".<P>There were so many possibilities with that part and it seems that PJ blew it.

I liked it. The scenary was good and I liked the dead faces in the water. Only thing I would change is the tricksy lights being little lights dancing around instead of spouts of flame.

It was a good scene although the flame spurts were a little cheesy - they didn't really have a presence and it might have been better if it took place at night. Although I am still satisfied with the Dead Marshes

I thought PJ did the Dead Marshes well. I agree it should have been darker but I didn't mind at all.<P>I found it quite intresting when Gollum was the one to save Frodo. Even Frodo was suprised. I found it very signifigant.

I found the entire scene to be freaky and when Gollum pulled Frodo out of the water I found myself saying "Thank you, Gollum!"...<P><I>*shudders*</I><P>Yep this scene creeped me out <B>period</B>!

I feel silly for asking this, but is that the dead Gil-galad who tries to grab Frodo?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> in the drafts of TTT Tolkien had the Dead reaching out to grab Frodo and Sam <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was just waiting for that to happen! In the Dead Marshes it's very obvious the PJ's other films were horror films.. I was waiting for something like in 'Minority Report' were the precog grabs Tom Cruise, scaring me halfway to death, and I was glad that didn't happen. Even if I was waiting for it, it would've made me wet my pants...<P>Back to the topic.. I liked the Dead Marshes ok, but I imagined them to be more water and less plants(more soggy), at night, with ghostly, green lights instead of flames and with fog. But you know, PJ might picture them like this, we'll never know. He has said several times that these movies are formed from the way he and his colleagues picture Middle-Earth.

Gollum saving Frodo was a very good call by Jackson I think.

Yes, I agree that Gollum's saving Frodo was a good way to support the "he is bound to me and I to him" line that occurs later. But what he was saving him FROM... ew. Although I think the whole thing would have been scarier if 1) it had taken place during the night and 2) The 'candles' had been more like glowing auras rather than flames.

I loved this scene a lot! It was very very suspenceful. And when the dead tried to grab Frodo, ! <P>Awesome!

Well, I found that scene to be exceptionally quite well designed; better than an illustration. I wasn't quite sure when it was day or night. It seemed like day was dawning when they saw the Nazgul, which I found a bit much. If he's swooping around so close to them and not so far up in the sky, it seems overly fortunate that they are not detected.<P>As for the flames, I think one interpretation of the "candles" is that while enchanted they are not really so different from the flaring of reqular swamp gas, which can emit be a prodigious source of methane. And, I think that that is the way that the natural phenomonom looks.<P>What I didn't like about Frodo's falling in is that the dead bodies appeared as threatening wraiths. I think many close readers of the book would say that even as the Dead Marshes are foul, bizarre and dangerous. The faces of the Men and Elves are nothing more than images. They are not supposed to be evil wraiths trapped in the pools. And while these images are very tragic and disburbing they are also in a way hallow.<P>So, this would be a purist's rant, except that I understand Mr. Jackson's need to veer toward the more salient and immediate interpretion and make it meaningful for the uninitiated moveigoer.

In my opinion, I loved this scene. Sure you couldn't 'smell' the stench of the marshes, but you could definitly hear them. <BR>I didn't quite understand the flames, I mean, I knew they had taken the places of the candles or lights in the marshes, but I was thinking 'where did those come from?' I guess it didn't hit me that marshes produced gases thus causing the flames. <BR>The faces were done well, though I thought they would have been more transparent, almost blending in with the marsh water, rather than being so bold and visable. But I guess thats just me, they were very creepy, I thought for sure one would open it's eyes and scare the daylights out of everyone.<BR>Let me just conclude in saying that nothing's ever perfect. I think PJ did an awesome job on this scene, and the entire movie as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What I didn't like about Frodo's falling in is that the dead bodies appeared as threatening wraiths. I think many close readers of the book would say that even as the Dead Marshes are foul, bizarre and dangerous. The faces of the Men and Elves are nothing more than images. They are not supposed to be evil wraiths trapped in the pools. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you may be forgetting about Gollum's warnings, "You should not look in when the candles are lit" and "Very carefully! Or hobbits go down to join the Dead ones and light little candles....Don't look at the lights!"<P>This indicates that there was some danger from the Dead, though we never find out exactly what might have happened if they didn't follow Gollum's advice.

OK, everybody keeps saying "it should have been night time" or "it should have been dark". Now who in their right mind is gonna go walking through someplace called "The Dead Marshes" at night? <P>Even Gollum ain't that crazy.

As they approach the Marshes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Before the shadows of evening were long in happier lands, they went on again, always on and on with only brief halts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> They had come to the very midst of the Dead Marshes, and it was dark.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Presently it grew altogether dark: the air itself seemed black and heavy to breathe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sam looked back and found that Frodo had lagged again. He could not see him. He went some paces back into the darkness, not daring to move far, or to call in more than a hoarse whisper. Suddenly he stumbled upon Frodo, who was standing lost in thought, looking at the pale lights.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>At last they came to the end of the black mere, and they crossed it, perilously .... It was late in the night when at length they reached firmer ground again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So it's basically evening into night, and Tolkien reiterates the actual darkness and feeling of darkness throughout.

The Dead Marshes scene was one I was very happy with. The vegetation was like in my mind's picture, plantful, though, like some of you, I pictured the marshes in like a wood, but I still liked it. <BR>Though I have no problem with the lights, I think what may be wrong is there needs to be more fog, so you can't clearly see what 'kind' of lights they are.<BR>see ya,<BR>~M

Diamond - OK. So it was dark.

I was disappointed by the Dead Marshes scene. Although it was brilliant, I did not get that feeling that there were dead Men and Elves down there. I did not like the wraith-y thing that appeared when Frodo went under- too much like the Ring wraiths themselves. Whenever I have pictured the Dead Marshes, the faces of the dead have been more real and less like Jell-o. Not that I have anything against Jell-o, it was just that my overall impression of my favorite scene was something along the lines of, "Eh?" <P>But I will admit I got caught up in the whole thing (along with the rest of the audience) and gasped when Frodo fell and chewed on the chain of the necklace I was wearing while they looked down at the faces...

I thought the scene was very good though, as many have said, it would've been cooler at night. I'd, also, envisioned the lights like fireflies or fairies giving it a more luring for travelers. So the flame was too harsh for a setting of creepy sorrow, which I think Tolkien was trying to pull off. By the way, was I the only one who thought the trio actually walked in the water? That path seem to solid for a swamp. I should know, I been in several.

Overall, I really liked the Dead Marshes. <P>- I'd have to say that I didn't mind the fact that it was in the daylight. It kind of gave me the impression that the characters could still be extremely frightened in the sunshine. Although it would be interesting to see the scene in the darkness.<P>- The dead faces were very eerie. I thought they were well-done. They certainly struck a bit of fear into my heart, and they made the toddler sitting a few rows down scream in agony. (Or perhaps that was because she had run out of candy. )<P>- I agree that the spurts of flame would have been more mysterious if they had been more like auras of flickering light. They made me feel as though rugged camps of orcs had tramped through the marshes, leaving campfires burning behind them. (Although of course they hadn't).<P><B>About Frodo falling in-</B> Did anyone else get this, or was it just me? When Frodo fell in, the dead...things were closing in on him and reaching out for him. Well, when Gollum's hand appeared behind Frodo's shoulder and grabbed him, it made me think that a dead person had managed to grab Frodo. This was because Gollum's hand was gnarled and rather ghastly. So, I thought PJ did a good job with that, if he intended to give that impression. Did anyone else think that Gollum's hand was a dead person's hand, seizing Frodo?

Actually, no I didn't, DarkRose. I thought it was Sam, but that's probably just because I was expecting Sam to pull him out all along. I probably wasn't looking at the right part of the screen because I didn't notice the hand, I just saw Frodo being pulled up. But maybe if I had been paying attention in the right spot I would have thought that. It sounds like something PJ would intend. <P>And Birdland, . I couldn't pass up an opportunity to quote passages from the Dead Marshes. <p>[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

In response to Diamond 18, Gollum's warning about dying for falling in the pools may suggest some sort of threat from the faces, but not necessarily.<P>The ability for Hobbits to fall in and die in such fetid/mucky pools through the more prosaic effects of drowning was all that I read into Gollum's words. In the book he'd gone in and come out, only disappointed that there was nothing he could reach, as opposed to any suggestion of having eluded hideous wraithy-like things.<P>So, again, I think Mr. Jackson has for his own love of frightening, cinematic effects gone down a more superficial, and less likely way to understand the Dead Marshes relative to the vision of the Author of the Books from his interpretations of the Red Book. Alas!

I was just saying that when I read TTT I took Gollum's words as indicating some danger beyond simple drowning. He mentions the <I>special</I> danger of looking in when the candles are lit as opposed to when they aren't. So I may just be as superficial as PJ, but from the very start I've imagined the Dead as being dangerous in their own right. It does depend on the reader's viewpoint.

My edition of LOTR is the magnificent centenary version, illustrated by Alan Lee. While he's by no means always correct, Lee's pictures have formed a lot of my image of Middle-Earth, especially Orcs. The Dead Marshes in the movie are straight out of Lee's pictures, with PJ's creepy effects added. The shot with Frodo falling headlong into the water was pure evil, I loved it! I think they should have cut before his splash though. The whole effect would have been diminished at night. My only gripe is that often it looked way too much like a set.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I feel silly for asking this, but is that the dead Gil-galad who tries to grab Frodo? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I hope not! Gil-Galad's body should have been taken back for a royal funeral, at least to Gondor if not Rivendell. Hopefully the movie doesn't put him in the Dead Marshes.

I myself couldn`t tell, but my son who watched the movie with me, is also convinced, that it was indeed Gil-Galad. Because he had seen the appendix-DVD of the FotR (Special extended edition) where they show exactly how Gil-Galad was dressed.

Alot of my friends are convinced its Gil-galad, but it shouldn't be, I mean its Gil-galad surely he would not be left to rot in the dead Marshes?

Well I just went to ask my brother, who is well not very, well you will see by his answer:<BR> "its not Gil-galad because he dosn't have pointy ears"<BR>Wow how come I never thought of looking at his ear that would have given him away....<P>I thought the dead marshes scene was good, but the lights were dissapointing I like what the hell.......<p>[ January 02, 2003: Message edited by: Arien ]

The Dead Marshes was a really cool scene. Although very very creepy. Did anyone notice that the dead elf that opened its eyes in the water..was the same elf from the prologue of the 1st movie?..the one with reddish hair that was blowing around when Sauron was exploding sort of.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Did anyone notice that the dead elf that opened its eyes in the water..was the same elf from the prologue of the 1st movie?..the one with reddish hair that was blowing around when Sauron was exploding sort of. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I noticed that. That means that it cannot be Gil-galad, because in the movie he had dark hair. He was the one with the spear. Those two Elves were different.

How about the Nazgûl scene in the Marshes? The scenery wasn't creepy enough for me. It definitely would have been scarier if it was night for that scene. I think the terror factor of the Nazgûl was lacking in the movie. For example, when the Ringwraith swooped over them, Sam didn't even look scared!<P>Here's an exerpt from the book concerning the Nazgûl. Bolded parts are mine, showing the true nature of their presence:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Then Frodo and Sam staring at the sky, breathing deeply of the fresher air, saw it come: a small cloud flying from the accursed hills; a black shadow loosed from Mordor; <B>a vast shape winged and ominous</B>. It scudded across the moon, <B>and with a deadly cry went away westward, outrunning the wind in its fell speed</B>.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And here are Frodo, Sam, and Gollum's reactions to the Nazgûl:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><B>They fell forward, grovelling heedlessly on the cold earth.</B> But the <B>shadow of horror</B> wheeled and returned, passing lower now, right above them, sweeping the fen-reek with its <B>ghastly wings</B>. And then it was gone, flying back to Mordor with the speed of the wrath of Sauron; and behind it <B>the wind roared away</B>, leaving the Dead Marshes bare and bleak. The naked waste, as far as the eye could pierce, even to the distant menace of the mountains, was dappled with the fitful moonlight.<P><B>Frodo and Sam got up, rubbing their eyes, like children wakened from an evil dream to find the familiar night still over the world. But Gollum lay on the ground as if he had been stunned. They roused him with difficulty, and for some time he would not lift his face but knelt forward on his elbows, covering the back of his head with his large flat hands.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I really wish the whole Dead Marshes scene was like the book. That would have been very frightening!

I was infact disappointed by the dead marshes, they were nothing how I had imagined them but then most of the film was not how I had imagined it.<P>I think it is worth remembering that PJ provided us with one interpretation of the story, so what we see is only one idea of how it may actually have been. Visually I thought the scene was very impressive even though I was expecting a little more spooky as they were the <I>dead marshes,</I> and that it had come from Mr Jackson.<P>To answer earlier questions, Brinniel I also thought the elf who opened his eyes (or they just went white) was Gil-galad when I first saw TTT. From what I have seen of him in the extended dvd it certainly looked like him from the face. I sincerly hope it was not him however as even in a movie where they did not show his strength and his purpose, they could not condemn him to the dead marshes, surely!<P>Also, the post about Smeagol/Gollum saving Frodo being a reference to Frodo saving Sam in FotR, following that pattern would it not mean that Sam would have to save Gollum in the next film? It seems unlikely that he would after all he is not fond of the creature but perhaps that makes it even more of a possibility? No?

The Dead Marshes were very interesting, but I had always imagined them being a bit more creepy than that. Rotting faces, but not people who looked like they were simply sleeping under the water. Though it was kind of creepy when Frodo fell in.<P>It was amazingly great how Smeagol saved Frodo. Nice move, Pete.<P>I was exceedingly happy to see the Nazgul arrive. Flying Nazgul... muh ha ha!<P>Yes, it was dark at the Marshes in the book, but if it were dark in the movie how would we have been able to see all the dead faces clearly? It would have been very terrifying, though. Maybe they could have the candles light up the faces or something? Hmm...<P>Surprisingly the little kids in front of me didn't get scared during the Marshes, only when Gandalf hit Theoden on the head did he start screaming in terror. <P>~Nurumaiel