Character redemption
Is it possible that some Tolkien characters could have been redeemed without dying/being killed?
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I would argue that both Maedhros and Maglor have redemption plots: Maedhros when he surrenders the High Kingship (though obviously he turns bad again by the end) and Maglor when he throws the Silmaril into the Sea. There's actually not that many 'is redeemed and dies' plots in Tolkien. Turin, if you consider him in need of redemption. Boromir, always. Arguably Thorin. But the likes of Maeglin, Feanor, Saruman, Denethor, Gollum - they aren't redeemed. They die (so to speak) in their sins. Can you present support for your view that redemption == dying in Tolkien? Because I've just named six characters with redemption arcs, split evenly between living and dying. hS |
You just named five characters who died without being redeemed, which is what this topic is all about. In a manner of speaking, death is their 'redemption', in a loose sense of the word.
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I think that speaks to Tolkien's worldview. He was quite happy to have characters with a grey edge to them - Turin or Eowyn, for instance. They could be redeemed, or find happiness, and that wasn't a problem. But once someone made a deliberate, informed choice to do evil, he really didn't go in much for redemption arcs. hS |
Sorry, I meant that their deaths themselves mean they can't do evil things anymore, and are therefore 'redeemed'. And I agree with you for the most part (Lomion's case is an exception).
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I wouldn't call that "redemption," that's just a guarantee against recidivism. Possibly the only "redemptive deaths" in Tolkien are those of Turin and Boromir. Gollum was acting fully in accord with his evil character, and just happened to fall (or was pushed)- no redemption there, even if good happened to come from his death. |
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What I am curious to know people's thoughts on is Grima, because I love that scene and his character there. I wouldn't go as far as to say he is redeemed, but he does have a glimmer of light in a Gollum 2.0 kind of way. He is about to turn his back on his past and learn a little love and kindness. Then Saruman crosses the line and pushes him into a state of hatered and rage, which is how he dies. Grima dies having paid for his sins, though not really regretting them (sorry that it failed but not that he did it sort of feeling), having opened a door into a better way of living but not stepping through it. How is he to be judged? Mind you, I'm not sure that Grima killing Saruman is a sin in the same way, say, Turin's murders are, even the accidental ones. It's justice and poetic justice, it doesn't seem wrong in context. But it's also not right, again given the context of forgiveness as the emphasized virtue. Now that I think of it, with his death Grima paid for Saruman's death, not for anything else he's done or been. But what was he at the end? Did he die Gollum or Smeagol? |
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Grima, though, was moved to a kind of false repentance by cruelty. As you say, he's not sorry for most of his actions (possibly Lotho's death), but he hates Saruman. What he's tempted by doesn't seem to be redemption, but defection. Had he somehow been able to take Frodo's offer, he would have rested, had food and shelter for a while - then headed off to, like as not, take up some other unpleasant occupation. It is to Tolkien's credit as a writer that he makes us feel pity for a character who has really been a stereotypical evil minion the entire time we've known him. But ultimately, Grima kills Saruman out of personal, selfish anger, not to make the world better, but simply to get him out of his face. I don't think that's a redemption arc. hS |
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Lobelia Sackville Baggins has a redemptive story arc,
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The basis of her feud with Bilbo (and afterward, Frodo) seems to have been Bilbo's return from an apparent certain death in the Wild, preventing her and Otho from possessing Bag End. That's really a petty foundation for a grudge! Perhaps the worst example of genteel Hobbit 'entitlement' mentality. It took being imprisoned by the Ruffians and the murder of her son by outsiders to make her see that comfortable Shire living wasn't her right, and that her money couldn't guarantee her safety, nor bring Lotho back. A hard lesson, but one she accepted in the end. |
As I understand the question, Boromir.
Had he not died he would have joined the three hunters. Allowing him distance from the ring and gaining some perspective and maybe wisdom along the way. |
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Was it normal for Hobbits to adopt relatives like their own, if not, then I perhaps one can understand why Lobelia would be a tad miffed by missing out on Bag End? |
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Then again, Bilbo was his employer, and he didn't care much for the SBs. Quote:
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An interesting thought is that Lobelia became a hero not because she fundamentally changed her attitude (or her peevish nature); rather, due to the circumstances, her native stubbornness and haughtiness cast her as a foil against Sharky and his men, and she became a champion of resistance because she retained her faults. |
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