No, but good thought. Think later and smaller.

Grima?

Yes indeed!

I too am feeling lazy right now, so.....

He brought doom upon five.

Well done, Urwen! But, um... how Grima? Not getting it.

hS

Theoden was complaining about the first councilor running off (Grima), the second one running off (Gandalf).

My puzzle:

No takers?

Well, let me amend it slightly

He brought doom upon a family of five.

(*surreptitiously points to self*)

There are a couple options (such as Morgoth who doomed Hurin and the other 4 family members), but then they also brought doom on many others as well.

You callin' us bad guys? Not cool, G55, not cool at all.

Anyway, Morgoth was the one I had in mind, so over to you.

I was calling Morgoth the bad guy who brought doom on all of Beleriand, but whatever.


This one is a little creative:

A giant out of the tales, to delight the teller.

Fastitocalon?

No but you're on the right track.

Oliphaunt?

Indeed so!

I can't help but make this next one.

Which bad guy is rumored to be half-Orc?

Oh, I know this one!

It's Bill Ferny's Southerner friend from Bree, right?

:D

hS

Well, you're *technically* correct, so I'll give it to you with interest. :smokin:

:D

Okay, so: many of Tolkien's villains brought about their own defeat by their own actions, but to the best of my memory, there is only one who directly defeated themselves, finally and utterly. Who?

hS

Gollum comes to mind first. If not him, then Ungoliant, who eventually devoured herself.

Ungoliant is who I was thinking of, right enough. Over to you.

hS

Here is an easy one:

Name all of the known traitors in Tolkien-verse. :smokin:

By which definition? If we take the colloquial 'betrayal of trust', then Celegorm and Curufin were traitors in Nargothrond; if we require the stricter 'betrayal of your country', they weren't, because they were there as refugees. If we walk it back to 'betrayal of your ruler', then... well, who knows?

If we're only after legally convicted traitors, then we'd have to look into the few legal cases that took place and see if we can divine what they were actually accused of. Feanor and Beregond both broke oaths, but I'm not sure either of them committed treason.

And what of Ulfang and his sons? Were they traitors, or faithful undercover agents of Morgoth? Can they be both?

"Do not go to the Elves for counsel..."

hS

Well, I kinda asked this question in 'honor' of Bereg and the guy in my avatar. ;)

So with that in mind, go with whatever definition you think is appropriate. :smokin:

Or, if you think it too broad still, I can narrow it down more/change the question.

I will take as my definition 'turned from a true or divinely-appointed loyalty to actively and intentionally work against it while not under direct coercion'. So confessing something under torture, or working as a slave, are not treason; but escaping from those conditions and continuing to serve your enemy would be.

Breaking the laws of your nation is not treason, unless by doing so you intentionally work against said kingdom.

(Despite a certain desire to the contrary, I will also limit myself to characters from the generally-accepted canonical version of Middle-earth. It would be fun to delve into the Lost Tales and Story of Kullervo, but I don't really have the time.)

No, no, we can do this. From the top, then.

The Traitors of Tolkien

Part 1 - The Powers

• Melkor - betrayed the Elder King and waged war against the Valar.
• Osse - turned against the Valar for a time.
• Sauron - betrayed his master Aule.
• Gothmog & the other Balrogs - Maiar who turned to Melkor.
• Saruman - joined Sauron.

Excluded:

• Ungoliant - no indication she ever served the Valar.
• Glaurung, Carcharoth, etc - not confirmed Powers; may have been bred to evil.
• Radagast & the Blue Wizards - failed in their tasks, but not said to have actively betrayed the Powers.

Part 2 - The Quendi
2a - The Vanyar
None

2b - The Noldor

• Feanor - While serving as High King of the Noldor, rebelled against his overlord Manwe.
• Fingolfin - During the captivity of Maedhros, staged an effective coup against the rights of said captive High King.
• Celegorm & Curufin - While refugees in Nargothrond, orchestrated an effective coup against the king.

Excluded:

• Aredhel - broke the laws of Gondolin, but did not betray it.
• Maedhros & Maglor - While many times kinslayers, were never of the kingdom they attacked; nor did they surrender to Eonwe.

2c - The Teleri, Sindar, and other Third Host

• Maeglin - After his return to Gondolin, worked to weaken the city for Morgoth.

Excluded:

• Eol - Murderer and kidnapper, but not traitor.

Part 3 - The Big Folk
3a - The First Age

• Gorlim - Refused to give up information under torture, but did so when bribed.
• Turin - Mostly just hapless, but murdered the lord of Brethil, his adopted land.

Excluded:

• Bereg - Rebelled against the clan leadership, but only to depart.
• Ulfang & sons - Undercover agents for Morgoth.

3b - The Second Age

• The Lord of the Nazgul & two compatriots - Lords (or Ladies???) of Numenor who took service with Sauron.
• Herucalmo ("Tar-Anducal") - Usurped the sceptre.
• Pharazon - Usurped the sceptre.
• Amandil - Broke the law of Numenor and of the Valar in sailing west to act as informant against his homeland.

Excluded:

• Elendil & sons - Acted to preserve their culture, not to damage Numenor.

3c - The Third Age

• Beruthiel - presumptively a traitor, but could potentially just have been nosy.
• The sons of Earendur - waged war on High King Amlaith of Arnor and split the kingdom.
• Castamir - usurped the throne of Gondor.
• Mardil "Voronwe" - effectively usurped the Throne of Gondor.
• Grima - betrayed Rohan.
• Eomer - broke the law of Rohan by allowing strangers to roam freely.
• Eowyn - defied the king and left Rohan without a leader of the Royal House.
• Beregond - abandoned his post and committed murder on the Silent Street.
• Bill Ferny & others of Bree - opened the gates of Bree to invasion.

Part 4 - The Little Folk

• Bilbo Baggins - stole the Arkenstone and gave it to Thorin's enemies to weaken him.
• Lotho Sackville-Baggins - usurped the powers of the Mayor and Thain of the Shire.

Excluded:

• Smeagol - Murderer and oathbreaker, but said oath was taken under duress and not particularly intended.
• Merry - Disobeyed the word of the King of Rohan, but not to endanger the nation.
• Pippin - Was relieved of his duty prior to acting against Denethor.

Part 5 - Other Races
None.

How am I doing so far? :D

hS

Over to you.

Um. Okay, let's see.

What do Feanor and Tar-Ciryatan have in common, that could lead to both of them being called 'bad guys'?

hS

Speaking against the Valar?

You're on the right track... I'm looking for something that's specifically those two, and not (for example) Ar-Pharazon.

hS

Stealing ships?

And now you're off the right track. :)

I wanted to use Tar-Telperien instead, which would have meant I couldn't have used Tar-Ciryatan; but I decided the case was stronger for Ciryatan.

hS

Kinslaying? Departing for Middle Earth?

No. I meant precisely what I said when I claimed that naming Tar-Telperien would mean I absolutely couldn't name Ciryatan too.

hS

Well, apart from leaving all the responsibility for other people to handle and refusing to hand over the scepter, I don't see what Telperien did to brand her a bad guy. And neither Feanor nor Ciryatan did either of those things.

Tar Telperien was reluctant to pass the leadership to her nephew.....Feanor hated his brothers and their children......

I don't think I asked what they did; I asked what they have in common, which is, yes, related to what they did.

hS

They doomed their people?

That's... sort of the right answer, actually.

Yeah, I'm going to give you that. What I was trying for was that they were the first - the first to break the peace of Aman in Feanor's case, the first to turn against the Valar in Ciryatan's. The Falls of the Noldor and Numenor sprang, in a way, from their actions.

So over to you.

hS

What was your idea with Telperien?

She was the first ruler of Numenor not to yield the sceptre prior to her death. Ultimately, the fact that Tolkien specifically notes the first Shadow falling on the island in Ciryatan's reign trumped that.

hS