The Valley Forge - WW LXXXVII - Admin Thread
 

Here goes. Let me know if anything is missing. Fire away with any questions, suggestions, and so forth. I am in no huge rush to get this started. Please bear with me as I stumble along and make unavoidable mistakes - I'm sure they'll come.

Story line:

The dwarves of Erebor have fallen into dark times. A threat has come from the Dark Lord Sauron. His Nazgul demand allegiance, in reward for which of three Dwarven rings will be given. King Dáin wants nothing to do with it and has twice put off the messenger. But the messenger is going to come again, a third and last time, and he wants an answer, or war may break out.

But there is also a growing threat from within. Some dwarves do not like the king’s decision. They know the folly of defying Lord Sauron, and they also know that power could be gained if they received the three promised rings. A small group of dwarves in one corner of the community has decided to take matters into their own hands. They have formed a party, made themselves a name, and created a secret society. During the day, they attempt to persuade their fellow dwarves to rise in a revolt against the king and take what is offered them from Lord Sauron. At night, they go forth and execute any who stand in their way, making examples of them for anyone else who wishes to stand against them.

King Dáin knew not how to put down this inward uprising and deal with the traitors. He sent trusted dwarves down to the area where the killings were occurring, but these dwarves were murdered or sent back with their beards shaven and with the society’s brand imprinted on their shoulder.

Finally, one dwarf stepped forward and promised results, or his life forfeit. “Indeed,” the king told him grimly, “your life will be forfeit. For if you fail to bring down this uprising, those members of the Valley Forge will save me the trouble of removing your head.”

The dwarf bowed and withdrew from the king’s presence and set himself the task of learning the workings of the society of the Valley Forge. When he deemed himself ready, he traveled to the corner of Erebor where the Forge held its reign of terror. He quickly blended into the darkest parts and amongst the darkest dwarves of the place. In time, he was brought before the Forge’s leader, questioned, put through the trials of a new member, and permitted to enter into the society.

But in secret, he had already planted the first seeds of his real work. He had stirred the people up with ideas and rumors. The terrified dwarves were tired of being bullied and killed at whim, and as the king seemed to be doing nothing about it, they would do something for themselves. It was decided that they must purge the place of the evil dwarves, and each day a trial would be held and each night, they would decide on who was most likely to be part of the Valley Forge. And for such dwarves, there was only one punishment: death.

Roles:

1 The King’s Dwarf

1 Night Watchdwarf

1 The Sweetheart

Several members of the group Valley Forge

More innocent bystanders


The King’s Dwarf: This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge. During the night, he will hold council with the other Forge members and will partake in the killing.

At the end of each Day, he will send the moderator a PM which will be sent to the Night Watchman. In this PM, he will note down who he thinks the Forge might kill that night.

If the members of the Forge discover who the King’s Dwarf is, it is their intent to kill him during a night phase. If they succeed, they also will get to kill the Sweetheart if she has found the King’s Dwarf by this time and she has not already been killed by the village dwarves. Until they succeed in this, or he is lynched by the mob, they will have a player in their midst who knows their identity and who wants nothing more than to get them killed.

If the King's Dwarf is killed by the villagers, the game continues until the members are destroyed or the villagers are brought down to the members' number.

The King's Dwarf has succeeded in his mission when all of the Forge members are dead.

The King’s Dwarf cannot at ANY time in the game reveal himself.

The Night Watchdwarf: This dwarf has the ability to protect the victim of the Forge’s violence. The King’s Dwarf at the beginning of each night will get word to him who he thinks the Forge may attack. The Night Watchdwarf may either ignore or take heed of the dwarf’s warning. After he has received the warning, he will PM the moderator with the name of the player he wishes to protect. Who he chooses to protect will survive the night. He may protect the same person no more than two nights in a row.

The Sweetheart: This is the character with whom the King’s Dwarf inadvertently falls in love. At the beginning of the game, she does not know who the King’s Dwarf is, and the King’s Dwarf does not know who she is. Each night, she will send the moderator two names. The moderator will respond whether or not one of the names is the King’s Dwarf. Once the sweetheart has learned the identity of the King’s Dwarf, the King’s Dwarf will be informed and will know who the sweetheart is. These two will be able to communicate at night and further instructions will be given them at a later time (this part is still pending).

The King’s Dwarf is willing to put his life down for her. If the wolves kill her during the night, the King’s Dwarf will make a killing, but in doing so, will reveal himself and will die as well.

If the sweetheart is killed during the day by the villagers, the King’s Dwarf can do nothing.

Members of the Valley Forge: Their purpose is to kill the King’s Dwarf and get the number of villagers down to their own number. During the night phases, they will PM amongst themselves and before the Night deadline, they will send the moderator the name of their kill.

The members of the Forge can only kill the King’s Dwarf at night if there are two or more of them left to do so. Once the game comes down to one Forge member left and the King’s Dwarf is still alive, that final Forge member cannot kill him.

With fifteen players, there will be four members of the Forge.

Reveals are NOT allowed. If you do not respect this rule, you shall be kicked from the game and the mod and other players will be very cranky with you.

There may be double lynchings, but only two will be killed at a time.

The votes must be given thus:

++Folwren

Votes are retractable, but only if you replace one name with another. Like so:

--Folwren

++Thornden

Each day period and each night period will last 24 hours. Deadling will begin at 5:00 EST.

Players
Sally
Inzil
Nerwen
Boro
Galadriel
Eruhen
Bom
Glirdan
Finduilas
Rikae
McCaber
Wilwarin
Pitchwife
the Phantom
Mithalwen

Sounds interesting! Go ahead and count me in.

A question - how will you be taking the nightkills of the Forge? It doesn't seem like having one person send in the kills will work in this setup, if you mean for the Forge to be able to kill off their own members during the night.

Another question - what is the King's Dwarf's win condition? Same as the innocents?

Another question - what happens when the Forge is reduced to two members - one Forge member and the King's Dwarf?

Does the sweetheart know they are the sweetheart?

yeah, some of these questions I thought of this morning, a wee bit late. :rolleyes:

Again, I am unsure what the general set up for this is. I had in mind that the Forges would converse by PM and then one of them would send me their decision. I am counting on the integrity of the player playing the King's Dwarf not to send in the wrong name should he ever be the one to send me the name. To ensure that nothing like that happens, the one who sends me the name can also send it to all the other Forges at the same time.

Yes, sorry for not clarifying. When all the Forges are dead, the King's Dwarf has succeeded in his mission.

I had thought the game could keep going, but it would be pointless as the night round would be obsolete because the King's Dwarf would stand against any more killing. So I guess at that point, the K.D. would be able to announce himself to the village and they'd kill the last member. But I'm kind of imagining that the members of the Forge would have figured out who the K.D. was by the time they're down to two. I think it'll be a pretty close game.

Yes. But she will not know who the K.D. is. I think that hte K.D. also knows who she is at the beginning. I am batting the idea around for the K.D. to choose who the Sweetheart is...what do you think of that?

I'll add stuff that I say here to the first post so newcomers see it.

I don't think I'll be able to play this time around, but you know I'm always available if you want to bounce ideas off of me and gossip about roles.

Any idea of the likely deadline?

I am thinking 3:00 P.M. Central Time Zone, which would be approximately three and a half hours from when this is posted.

Either that or 11:00 P.M. Central time. Which would be approximately eleven and a half hours from the time this is posted.

I once played in a game, Eönwë's, I think, in which I was a "saboteur" wolf. I was nominally on the side of the wolves, plotting with them at Night, but my ultimate goal was to help the village. It fell to me more than once to send in the kill, but I wasn't allowed to so overtly thwart my packmates as to disrupt that. Also, doing so would have been a sure tipoff to the pack as to what I was up to. This sounds like the same sort of thing.

I don't know, it seems like an interesting dynamic to me, that the KD should be able to change the kill if the other wolves trust them enough to send it in. What if it's down to three (the KD and two wolves)? Which wolf do you trust to send in the kill? Do you all three send in a name, and majority rules? I like this idea.

Sure, we could do that. If we were trying to stay true to the story and what was supposedly happening (i.e. each night the members went out together to kill somebody) then it wouldn't happen like that, but it's okay.

I don't see why the KD wo0uld do that if it would hand the forge the game. Not sending the "right kill" is as good a way of saying here I am as I can think of bar shouting.

unless they can be sure there won't be another night of course. KD si going to be afiendishly difficult role to pull off... interesting

Let's see Nogrod, mild and meak, join the game. :)

And this time really, I'm going to fit the description... so no more playing overnight for me... (I've "learnt it" a couple of times already but maybe it's hammered in this time? :rolleyes:)


The concept! Whoa!

I need to read it tomorrow again, but it does look promising ideed!

Awesome, Nogrod. I'm excited about having you.

Inzil, I'm glad you've joined as well, I just haven't gotten around to saying so.

Shasta and Mith, can I take your interest and your questions to be an indication of you joining, too? :D I hope? Maybe?

Mith, you are right - the King's Dwarf will be an extraordinarily difficult role to play and win with. And you are also right that for the KD to send in a wrong name would pin him and get him killed. That's another reason why I wasn't worried about it at all.

I was thinking that the Forge needs more members than just 1 member per 4 villgaers. Possibly 1 to 3. That is, if we had 12 players, 4 would be Forge members. Does that sound fair?

Count me in!

Foley, yes I think I would like to play this one. Really fascinating concept but not too complicated.

As to fairness.. well while the Kings Dwarf will know all the others he will have to play his hand subtly to avoid being killed. Since if he helps his supposed fellows get lynched too much he is again on dangerous ground. Right if The Sweetheart is lynched then the KD dies but the game goes on. If KD is wolf killed - game over. If KD is lynched? Does the game carry on?

If so you could end up with a game with a lot of wolves and only one gifted who has lost the benefit of the KD's tips although being allowed ot protect twice in a row has that psych weapon of makingthe wolves guess if the double protect is used or not.

All my games have ended up being quite one sided however much I tried to make it fair. Bear in mind that in any game you are liable to have at least one drop out and a couple of players whose attendance is limited - even with the best will in the world RL can get in the way. Now obviously you should keep your role selection method private but you may want to think about what happens if KD is up for modfiring or what ever.

Classic WW was 1in4 players was a wolf. With 1 seer. If you felt that was too low you could have a cursed (bear in mind that a night killed player is often a strong player esp late in the game..) or a cobbler or..well I forget the other less used roles. If you think it is a bit high you could add a gifted.. A lot will depend on how many bods you get to sign up.

The game sounds great, Foley! Unfortunately, I won't be able to participate, since all my teachers decided that February is the perfect month to catch up on everything. I doubt that I'll have enough time to read through everything, much less to analyse it! :( Really sorry to have to miss out...
I guess I'll just have to wait until a long break before I participate...:(

I just figured out where the potential DL times are for me: 3 p.m. CST is really bad for me three days out of the week (smack dab in the middle of my school/work day), but the later DL would work marvelously all the time.

Just thought you should have my input. :)

However for me the 3 pm one would be best since I think that would be 9pm GMT whereas the other would be a horrendous 5 am...

Welcome, elrond's daughter. Sorry you can't play, Galadriel. Mith, I'm happy to have you aboard. :)

Yes, I would like to hear people's input on what deadline would be best for them. However, the final call will probably be if I think I will be able to effectively work my schedule around it, because I plan on spending about an hour before each deadline figuring out what happened and how best to write it. 11:00 P.M. works for me because I know I will always have the hour between 10 and 11 clear. 3:00 is less certain, as I am at work two days a week and although I have internet access, I don't always have time.

What is the cursed role?

EDIT: Mith, about your question about what happens if the KD is lynched: the game will continue as normal, until the Forge's members are all killed or until the Forge whittles down the number of villagers to their remaining number. I have put this into the first post.

EDIT #2: A lot of nick-names have been made up for players. When we have our full player list, I'd like to request one of two things. Either people call everyone by their screen names or obvious shortenings there-of (i.e. Inzil, Mith, and Shasta) or somebody post a list for me with screen-names and nick-names so I can tell who's being called what. Otherwise I fear I might lynch the wrong person, and that'd be baaaaad. :eek:

Foley, I do hope you realise I am not being critical - just only too aware that the one situation that hasn't been anticipated is likely to arise... and while I am shoving my oar in I would add that moddidng is more effort than you may think and you must be selfish and choose the best time for you - you can't please everyone with a world wide clientele so you may as well suit yourself.

Heartily endorse the use of true or obvious nicknames early. I think there is a list somewhere but it drove me nuts in the last game... having not played for ages particularly I found it deeply annoying to have obscure nicknames bandied by the cognoscenti.

The cursed is a prechosen player who if attacked by a wolf at night doesn't die but turns into a wolf and joins the pack. they don't know they are cursed until they are "turned" and nothing happens if they are lynched so it is a bit of a wild card.

Oh can the watchman protect KD from the other Forge members?

Any DL is no problem for me. If I can't be around at that time, so be it. It wouldn't be the first time.

I'm willing to play, I just think a 1-3 baddie/goodie ratio with only one real gifted is slightly unbalanced. :p

True enough. My concern with the 3 p.m. CST DL was mostly just that there might be some days where I would have to vote only a few hours into the Day, and I think it's hardly fair to everyone else playing for me to only be present for a few hours, and those vastly before DL.

But yes, Foley, choose whatever works best for you. If I have to vote obscenely early, then that's what I must do. Unless you think it would make a horrid game for everyone else - in which case I shall withdraw.

Whatever you think best, O Great Mod.

Well games have been won with the Seer being the only gifted in a game before. From my understanding the King's Dwarf already knows the identity of the Valley Forge/wolves and has to try to get them killed during the day lynch? In a way the King's Dwarf is a seer who knows the wolves already. The tricky part would be not dying, and getting the bystanders to go along.

Anyway, maybe I shouldn't have said anything, because I was just coming in to say I can't play in this (or any WW games in the foreseeable future). My weekends are booked until April with trips and I can't reasonably participate in a game that will make me internetless at least 3 days of the week. However, Foley, if you want to talk balance, hammer out any questions or details, feel free to PM me. :)

But the normal ratio is one in four not one in three being evil. It is absolutely imperative that the KD isn't killed at night. It is hard enough for a seer to stay alive without the Wolves knowing that there is a traitor in their midst watching for one of their number being useful to the village. Maybe have a true seer or a variant thereof ..I think there have been games where someone has limited dreams or something but a more regular player might know. Just something to give the KD a bit more cover?

Most interesting concept!

I have only one question, or concern, regarding the King's Dwarf: what actually prevents the King's Dwarf from coming out the first Day and saying "Hi! I am KD, the rest of the baddies are X, Y and Z."? I think a person with any sense for sporty game wouldn't do that, but just hypothetically, I could see a problem with this. Or is it so that the KD can only win if he/she really, really survives until the end? (If so, then perhaps you should emphasise it a bit more strongly...)

I think this is interesting as the game could get a lot more paranoid now for the WWs as well. So actually even if there were a bit more WWs than normally (but not TOO much more), it might not be such a big deal. Generally, I think the rules as they are might actually be fine. This will really depend a lot on the skill of the KD.

And for that matter... I think I could play :) The DL is most likely going to be something awful for me anyway, but who cares. I will just have to vote early.

I think there was some list of most typical nicknames in the sort of "WW rules" thread which has been made a while ago (it's the sticky in this area, I believe). You could look it up there, if need be.

Yes, it's the fourth post on the sticky thread. It's not quite up-to-date, though, as a few more nicknames have emerged since. In fact we really should ask morm to insert "Shasticle" and "Elra/L Ron/Daughter" etc. Also, Foley, you might find the Glossary (same thread) helpful.

Seriously I will vote to lynch anyone who uses silly nicknames.... :cool:
Depends if the Ranger can protect the KD against the forge members. If not then the game would be over before all Forge members could be lynched since double lynch is maximum If Ranger can protect then might just eb able to do it. I suppose the KD could say WXY&Z are Forge Members now lynch me so game goes on but it would be rather joyless.

I haven't felt you were being critical, so it's all good. I appreciate your input. :)

Sure, if he can figure out who he is, I guess.

Well, the main thing that prevents him from coming out on Day 1 is the fact that the Forges will kill him during the night. Or, as Mith suggested, he could put himself up for killing that evening. But that would completely ruin the entirety of the game and I would be really cranky.

No, my intention was that the KD could never announce to anybody his true identity. I am sorry I never said this. As you can see, I really don't know what I'm doing and am only learning as I go along.

I'm trying to think realistically in the context of my scenerio - the KD doesn't want to die, so he can't tell the villagers who he is because then either the villagers won't kill him and the Forges will, or the villagers will kill him so the Forges won't. Heads he loses, tails he...doesn't win. I almost made it so that the game would be over if he died at all, but I figured that would be way too difficult.

So the idea of a sort of seer, so that the villgers would have another gifted...
And also the idea that 1 in 3 being a Forge member is too much...
I will think it over. You are probably right.

What do you all think of the idea of the KD choosing the Sweetheart?

Edit: Nerwen, are you joining us? :)

Well, and that's exactly what I am trying to prevent by asking about it... Because, even if the person does not want to reveal by himself, what if... let's put it this way: It is Day 1. (Or Day Anything, for that matter.) The village agrees that X is a Wolf and needs to be lynched. Basically everybody agrees on that there is something fishy about the fellow and votes start to fall. Half of the people has voted, our person X is in the lead and it does not seem like the votes are going to turn elsewhere anytime soon. However, unbeknownst to the village, person X is the King's Dwarf. Now what is the person going to do? If the situation looks really desperate? I think quite many people will be tempted (and under certain circumstances, it might be really the most reasonable thing to do, especially if there are only two other WWs left, the person can even very well win at that point) to just say "okay, I am probably going to die, but I will at least help the village. Okay, hear ye people, I am the King's Dwarf. Even if you now stop voting for me, I will likely die soon, but I can tell you that the Wolves are Y and Z." And what then? Will there be anything to prevent that?

Ah. A likely scenerio. Hm. Is it ridiculous of me to say that the KD CAN'T under any circumstances say outright who he is? I'd like to, as that's pretty much how I was thinking of it in my mind, but is it fair to expect that? Plus, if I don't make that rule, we can have all sorts of false claims and double bluffing going on. I'll think about this, too.

Well, I think there'll be no harm in saying that KD CAN'T reveal. It at least makes it clear. However, you possibly might have some hints and would-be hints and all anyway, such as "don't lynch me! It is to your own harm!" But then again, the outcome of that is far less certain (and if the person survives, he/she can get under suspicion by fellow Wolves).

But concerning the false claims, I don't think there will be much of false claims even if you don't decide to make that rule, as there is not much anybody would gain by them.

Anyway, you must decide for yourself, in the end... but possibly people might still have something interesting to say about this here.

We are your labrats. you can make the rules...

Oh I don't know if is unconscious but you have used he for KD & nightwatchman. and her for sweetheart. Now if that was more than a figure of speech (ie the KD will be a male player and the Sweetheart female then it adds a whole new dynamic to the game. Maybe should take advantage of the fact that male and female dwarves are hard to tell apart!

I am going to make no distinction of male and female players when the roles are decided. I aim to do it in a random manner and not choose anybody because I think they'll be good at a particular part. I called them a he and a she because that's how I have been picturing them in the storyline. I did not think how that would impact how I wrote my narratives. Hmph. Things are more complicated than I imagined.

I am thinking that I will make it so that the KD cannot outright announce his identity. The hints will crop up regardless, and that's fine. False hints may even arrive.

I am still thinking of possible additional gifted roles.

Does saying "my real name is Katy Davis"* count as announcing it outright?;)

*No, not really. :D

Don't worry. You just have to state that using he/she in narrations shouldn't be taken as a clue to the actual gender of the players. They are just roles after all. If you don't end up making an executive decision about bringing someone back from the dead you will be doing better than me!!!

Oh, Galadriel, you have so much to learn about over hints. *hides from everyone from Glirdan's Greek game* ;)

Anyway, sadly, I'm out for this round. I'm simply too busy, and playing on my phone doesn't work nearly as well as I'd like, so I'll be taking a game or two off. It sounds fun though! :D

I get off work an hour after the DL (should it be 3pm) and as my last game showed that's not very good for me. However, if the DL were to be 11 PM I'd have about five hours of game play and then a quick vote post before going to work in the morning. I'd like to play, but I'm not sure if I can. Please mark me as a maybe and I'll make a decision soon.