Hurt & Heal V: Ainur (non-Valar)
 

RULES

From 20 to 7 - each player has 3 votes: 2 hurts and 1 heal. Double hurts are allowed.

From 6 to 4 - each player has 3 votes: 2 hurts and 1 heal. Double hurts ar not allowed: a player has to hurt 2 different characters and heal one, or he may use only 1 hurt and 1 heal.

When but 3 characters are left each player has either a hurt or a heal.

Wait for at least four posters to vote prior to you voting again.

Master Mormegil asked that I go ahead and start the thread, so here it is. Let's start the nominations. :)

I submit-

• Melian
• Eonwe
• Tilion
• Gothmog

How about Ungoliant (if she's a maia), Durin's Bane, and Osse ?

Girl power
 

Arien and Uinen ;)

Second Tilion and Arien (Luminos!)
nominate Alatar and Aiwendil (Downer Istari power!)

Second Melian, Durin's bane, Ossë, Alatar and Aiwendil,
nominate Pallando (and Tom and Goldberry if they count ;)).

Second Pallando and Uinen...

And second Eonwe. How can you not have the
Herald of Manwe in such a contest?

Annatar anyone?;)

I submit Curunir, and I second Uinen and Sauron.

Approved-

• Aiwendil
• Alatar
• Arien
• Durin's Bane
• Eonwe
• Melian
• Osse
• Pallando
• Sauron
• Tilion
• Uinen

Submitted, but not seconded yet-

• Curunir
• Gothmog
• Ungolient

EDIT: updated, oops

Phantom, you missed Legate's post where he seconded Pallando (and Uinen). ;)

Ooh Curunír seconded.

I was thinking whether to second him or not, because once he's there, a) he's going to be ridiculously much supported (by me at least), b) if people hurt him, I am going to be sad :(

But whatever :)

If we have the hyper-favourites Saruman and Sauron, I think we should have Gandalf too, just to be fair.

That's what I thought too: especially Sauron and Gandalf are just everywhere and everybody is voting them. Shouldn't we then just keep them out of that? Just so to prevent the all too obvious guys from winning again, which certainly would be quite boring.

Don't worry Legate - we have Nog. ;)

I'm sorry people, I'm not convinced AT all that Ungoliant is of the Maiar. I also think we should keep Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron out of this.

I actually agree with Lalaith here. Those three have been in enough competitions before...

If either Gandalf or Sauron had actually won a contest, I would say yes, keep them out.

But seeing as we're eventually going to have a Tournament of Champions (the people on the list will be previous winners) it seems a shame not to include characters and deny them the chance to win.

Gandalf and Sauron won't be able to be in the Elf, Man, Dwarf, Evil Minion, Female, weapons/armor, or Valar contest, so I don't think it'd be fair to keep them out of this contest that they actually qualify for.

And Ungolient is fine because this isn't a Maia contest. It's open to all the Ainur who were not among the Valar.

Well, phanston, I guess Lalaith's point might as well have been that Ungoliant is not Ainu at all. But I am fine with considering her as an Ainu, or even as a Maia.

But Gandalf and Sauron are too much, in my opinion. Curumo is still yet okay, he is a bit on the edge, but I think there might be some considerably strong clique against him. But these two guys... no way. Haven't they been in the first one, or something like that?

That's the thing. I don't think she's Ainu, she's something Other. The darkness and chaos and all that.

See? I said that ;)

Anyway, one thing to add to this Gandalf and Sauron - they could be in the contest "the biggest heroes" or something. Or "the most typical heroes". Or "the biggest bosses". Along with Morgoth and a some others (we might classify. Fëanor or Galadriel come to my mind).

I think "the biggest bosses" is a good idea for the future game - so we can indeed leave Gandy, Sau and Saruman out of this one.

Then such nice Maiar as Eonwe or Uinen would get a fair chance. :)

Since we'll probably have a "monsters" and/or "other" H & H game in the future, it might make sense to leave Ungolient off this one. Though she could easily be explained as an Ainu in the Silmarillion and in other writings, in some earlier stuff she was something else and even later she is not defined specifically.

So, yeah, we can leave her off if you don't want to see her now.

As far as purposefully excluding "popular" characters, thus far we certainly haven't been doing that to extreme measures. In the previous rounds we've included Turin, Hurin, The Witch King, Sauron, Saruman, Luthien, Ulmo, Fingon, Turgon, Finrod, Aragorn, Fingolfin, Eowyn, Gimli, Frodo, Sam, Feanor, and Glorfindel... and guess what? None of them won.

Now, I seem to recall Melkor being spoken against in one of the previous rounds because of his status, but then surely we'll allow him to compete when it's his time, right? (The Valar round most likely.)

Then what about a Maia this round? This is their time, isn't it? They won't be in the next eight or so games for sure. So do we deny popular characters the chance to win their division just because we think they're too likely to win, despite the fact that half of us would no doubt try and keep them from winning anyway?

Meh, you people decide. If we can fill the list up to 20 without them and you want to see them left off, I'm cool with it.

Approved-

• Aiwendil
• Alatar
• Arien
• Durin's Bane
• Eonwe
• Melian
• Osse
• Pallando
• Tilion
• Uinen

Being discussed-

• Curunir
• Gothmog
• Olorin
• Sauron
• Ungolient

Well, but that is actually also half of the point. That's why I think those guys should have their own cathegory. Because basically, against the "normal" characters, in fact everybody would wish them to win - so that's one reason why not allow them - and at the same time, some people would not wish them to win just based on principle: and that basically puts them in a completely different game, so to say. So I am against introducing them here.

I second Gothmog. He's surely a maia, and even though he's not particularily interesting, we may very well have him.

Hmm... wasn't there some speculation about Thorondor actually being a maia too? he'd be a nice addition in that case. And what about Ilmarë, Varda's handmaid?

Ha, interesting - Ilmarë, one would completely forget about her... and Thorondor could be, though perhaps we should save him for some "animal" competition or something, if there will be one?

I quite like the look of this list...:p

I second Gothmog.

Also, I don't think we should include Ungoliant, because I don't think that she's an Ainu. And if we include her, then we'll have to include Tom Bombadil and possibly Goldberry (I, for one, would definately push for them), and that would just make things more complicated.

I think we should just go with "fully-certified" Maiar.


We could do that. We could make one called "sentient animals" or such...

If Thorondor is considered a maia then I'll
second him. But his case (and the great eagles in
general) is one of the most ambiguous (which is
saying something for Tollers :D ) of classifications
in Ea. I lean slightly toward his being a maia, if
Melian could have a child, why not Thorondor? But...

Hmm. But I am not really sure. I guess it would be better to keep them out. Thorondor is probably rather "a spirit from elsewhere", but from where and what, nobody knows. One would say, it is something like a Maia, if not really a Maia, but still - it's a bit like with the Ents - and they certainly were not Ainur, yet were something else than most of the animals or Elves, Men, Dwarves etc. I guess we should leave Thorondor out: otherwise we are partially letting it get close to inviting Dragons into the bunch. So let us just leave them for another time.

Same goes for Ungoliant&co. - I'd side with Eönwë here.

We still need a few more.

• Aiwendil
• Alatar
• Arien
• Durin's Bane
• Eonwe
• Gothmog
• Ilmare
• Melian
• Osse
• Pallando
• Tilion
• Uinen

Salmar

And how about the (somewhat less than) dynamic duo
The Blue Wizards ?

Salmar's seconded.

They are there already :Alatar and Pallando

Maybe we should take them as one item, though? ;)

It may be that we just need to throw any and all that fit in this narrow category :)

Ah, yes! Once again somebody almost forgotten, yet so important... great, I like this :)

Certainly not! That's nonsense. I want to have them there separately!

Oh yea! Charming Pallando is so much nicer, wiser and braver than this old geezer Alatar :D:eek:

But Alatar is definitely a hunter, which is cool, especially when he is an old geezer :)

I always thought it was the other way around :p

edit: I somehow managed to get an x-post there.

How about stop chattering and start voting?;)

It would be great to start voting, but we can't do that until we have a full list. We only have 13 at this point. How are we going to fill the list, people?

• Aiwendil
• Alatar
• Arien
• Durin's Bane
• Eonwe
• Gothmog
• Ilmare
• Melian
• Osse
• Pallando
• Salmar
• Tilion
• Uinen