The third dark lord
 

Tolkien kind of had in mind that, no matter what victory good had over evil, it's influence could never be lifted. And after Morgoth's fall Sauron arose, so on a power scale or even just evilness, who was the third dark lord, was there one. I think there pretty much had to be.

you've always got the best topics, keeper. and by 'best' i mean 'dumb as hell'.

If you're gonna insult people go do it somewhere else.

Ahh! Imperica, you beat me to it. You are correct. Any topic is a valid one. Ever heard of <font color=blue>"there is no such thing as a bad question"? If you do not like the topic, just do not make a post.

On topic, I have never heard of a third dark lord. One might asume, however, that there will be anotherone at some point in time because not all evil was destroyed. It would however take a while to reach a dangerous point.

I don't think there actually needed to be. According to Tolkien's letters Sauron was really the last real "incarnation of evil." That is not to say there would be "dark lords" there would, I believe Tolkien also provided for this but simply not of the same sort. The only real time after the destruction of the Ring when a "dark lord" of the same type would become the cheif antagonist, I believe, would be the return of Melkor after, as described in various writings in Morgoth's Ring, after that power he had dispersed through Arda began to pool and acculmulate to such an extant that he could remanifest himself within Ea. Sadly though after the rejection of the second prophecy of mandos Tolkien went into very little detail as to what exactly the final battle would entail and involve. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

In a book I read the next menace of Middle Earth was a man who gathered the remains of the Nazgul Rings (they appeared not destroyed but scattered). Well, not the scale of Melkor or Sauron, just the conqueror of the world. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Anyway, it has nothing to do with Tolkien's works, so forget.

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: akhtene ]

Wellllll, there just happens to be a rather mah-velous RPG happening right now where the next great evil to hit Middle Earth is the Blue Wizards! (Shameless plug).

Seriously though, I would suppose that there will not be Evil Incarnate arising in Middle Earth again but "wars and rumors of wars", as Man strives for dominion over each other.

This kind of thing was happening even back to the Second Age of Middle Earth, and is bound to happen again. And if you ask the common folk of M-E if they would rather be killed by the Dark Lord, or some power-mad Kingling in the Fourth Age, I'm sure they be hard pressed to understand the difference.

I agree with Birdie. The time of the Maiar on ME had ended with the War of the Ring, so this seems to exclude the "Dark Lords". But again, the 4th Age began the Reign of Men, so there was bound to be "Evil Lords" who tried to pervert and to subvert men to his will. But at this time, instead of one Dark Lord to war against, many "lesser lords" arose to conquer and make war with those of Middle Earth.

Keeper, don't worry about those who argue or call names, just keep posting away. I, for one, appricate these types of questions, as it helps me plan for my story (shameless plug).

I suppose... hm.. Tolkien meant his works take place in the unknown history of our world ( we live in Seventh Age now, I think)
So I imagine many small dark lords and ladies in service of Melkor - an emperor there, a pharaoh here, religious tyrants, rulers named The Bloody or The Cruel, and the ones who started World War II...

I can't remember which HoME book it's from, but Tolkien started a fourth age story. Herumor would have been the cheif antagoist. Coicindintally, Herumor means "Dark Lord"

There have supposedly been three attempts by Melkor to dominate the world, and one still to come in the foreseeable future. There is the primal war at the start, in which Almaren and Utumno were destroyed; there is the war of the Jewels in which Angband was broken; and there is the campaign of Sauron, acting under Melkor's will and influence. Fourth is the attempt that is to culminate in the Dagor Dagorath. Ainur, Men and Elves are all represented in these wars.
Sauron is the only one of Morgoth's Maiar to be mentioned in the Valaquenta. Now that he is gone, Melkor does not, I think, have any more 'dark lords' up his sleeve. With the Dominion of Men, it is not just the Elves that are to back down but all other beings also, the Ainur included. That would presumably include Melkor's servants. Men now dominate Arda, so the only 'dark lords' we now have are those among Men that are corrupted by Melkor's will themselves.

Until the Domionion is finished, and Melkor returns for the penultimate clash (Sauron perhaps resurrected along with him), no, there is not to be another dark lord except Men themselves.

[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

if there had become a "3rd dark lord" he (/she...!?)would had been just a weak copy(that's my opinion!).
melkor, one of ainur, was gone.
sauron, a maia, was destroyed with his ring.
the only "bad guys" left are orcs and some men.
orcs can't bild so good community that there could rise only one orc to rule the others...so what about the easterlings...err...gondor is too strong unless the blue wisards have something to do with the thing

What about one of the Kings of Gondor and Arnor rising up to become a Dark Lord. They would easily have the power and crafrsmanship to wage war against the easterlings and bring them under their rule.

I hink that could be a possability seeing as this is sorta what happened towards the end of Numenors existance with Kings like Ar Pharazon. They laid the men of middle eart under tribute.

I kind of always had the idea that the Dark Lord would have to be more than a mere mortal. However, that idea may be wrong for the latter days.

My guess would be that a member of the "magic cults" of the Blue Wizards might have sufficient power (of a kind) to arise later on and cause a lot of trouble.

You will always have evil, even in Middle_Earth. Because the evilin the world is not only through melkor and his servants it is in the hearts and minds of the Children of Iluvatar. He gave them free choice, In a matter of speaking, and so when it comes to it they could do what they wanted. There could be a tyrent that rose up after Souron and there also could have been just a lot of other things and people that were evil. The only thing, I think, that could truly destroy evil was Iluvatar. But who knows....

My personal opinion is the next 'Dark Lord' whose defeat will bring the end of the Fourth age will be the Witch King. I base this on a little throwaway line in ROTK which state the Chief Nazgul's voice '- was not heard again *in that Age of the World*'. Sure sounds like forshadowing to me. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And it has the virtue of symetry. As Morgoth was succeeded by his chief lieutenant Sauron, so Sauron is succeeded by his.

Of course the ground of the south and east must be pretty well littered with black sorcerors, (such as Herumor) who will from time to time cause trouble. And there must be other leftovers from Sauron and Melkor's reigns capable threatening the Reunited Kingdom. But I don't feel these will qualify as the kind of all encompassing 'end of the world as we know it' that makes a 'Dark Lord'.

A Dark Lord who is a Man, or like the Witch King was once a Man, will in fact be the greatest threat of all for Men have the power to change the Music and remake fate. Misused this power could do incalculable damage that only other Men can repair or prevent.

And we mustn't discount the possibility of a fallen Elf as a 'Dark Lord'. As the power of Men waxes there are bound to be those among the remaining Elves who desperately desire to reverse that trend and might turn to evil means to do so.

in the end of 4th age the time of the elves is over.they have left middle-earth and gone to valinor.and if there is some lonely elf who refuses to go to valinor and wants to be evil-where does he/she get minions?
and the witch king...wasn't the ring the only thing driving him forward(is it even possible to use this kind of expression?!)so, when the ring is destroyed can a wraith stay "alive" well...you know

[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: dancing spawn of ungoliant ]

Hitler was sort of dark lord, wasn't he? :P I believe many men could be said to have been a dark lord, but all of them were of a lesser scale.

The word "elf" could sway a lot of people in the time of Middle-Earth, especially those who had grown up with fantastic stories about the Elves who had left. Many would kill for the chance to serve under an Elf- evil or not. And many would not be able to distinguish evil from good when confronted with an Elf. Many might think "If an Elf says it's okay, then it's okay!"
Anyway, I think the chance of this happening would be very slim, since the Elves were fading and from what I understood, any power (Such as forsight) faded with them.

As for I think on the subject, Sauron might have been the last bodily incarnation of evil in one form, but I think it would be very possible that the next Dark Lord would actually be spread out between each man, woman, and child. As in, the evil thoughts that invade the mind sometimes completely unbid, disguising themselves as a free choice of yours, but actually steering you towards distruction of all things good.

Meh, that sounds like some type of fantasy/horror/sci-fi story. Maybe I should try writing it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I remember that in letters Tolkien says that after Sauron there is no other incarnation of evil, as some of you have already said; and that from them on it is more difficult to distinguish evil and good because they are always mixed in all people and in all situations [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I agree with Tolkien: I would prefer a Dark Lord that is clear for everybody that is the encarnation of evil, like Sauron, than thousands of Sarumans which is not clear which side they are [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] And I think that this Seventh Age sometimes seems an age of Sarumans [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Tolkien did mention that the Blue Wizards might have started cults in the East, influenced by Saruman, that could eventually cause trouble for the western regions of Middle-earth. Their fates are purposefully kept ambiguous, and it is expressly stated that Gandalf was the only wizard to succeed in his mission (which was to inspire others to rise against Sauron), so I'm assuming that means that our dear Ithryn Luin fell "into shadow."
As for the Elf topic, I wouldn't put it past some Elves. Just look at Maeglin. Some may use the excuse that the combination of his traumatic childhood and his capture of Morgoth drove him to madness. I still say that it was his CHOICE. Every evil person starts out good. Even Morgoth was "good" at one point. They just become evil through wanting to do their idea of "good deeds" and what is "good" for the world. Any Elf who was alive before the Dominion of Men could still believe that Arda was intended for the Firstborn only. Elves had remarkable persuasive capabilities. It wouldn't be hard for an Elf to scrounge up a good-sized following of Men to start "taking over the world."
To all those who suggest that a Gondorian king could follow the same path as Ar-Pharazon and Numenor, I say, read the Silmarillion again! Sauron was the one who persuaded Ar-Pharazon to leave him alive, and take him to Numenor as a hostage. After that, he slowly insinuated himself into Ar-Pharazon's good graces. That is how the Fall of Numenor happened. I don't think that anyone with any of Sauron's capabilities ever arose again, and only one of Sauron's persuasive skills could ever hope to persuade a Gondorian king to put him in his councils. It just would be stupid.

*All* the Elves certainly do not leave Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age, not even all the great among them. Celeborn, Thranduil and Legolas are all specifically said to have remained - for a time at least.

Tolkien speaks 'faded' Elves, now immaterial, who still commune with chosen Men in our own day. And of evil Elves, disincarnates who hunger for bodies and might try to steal that of an unwary Man.

Celeborn and Legolas did leave Middle Earth, but there was nothing said about Thranduil (at least I haven't heard).
There is a 'Dark Lord' in every age, but it seems our - the Seventh - has had more than its share.
Sauron's spirit could still be out there somewhere, turning a man or men to the path of evil. There's no telling when a new 'Dark Lord' will arise.
And I'm begining to scare myself. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

i think that the only possible person to be the 3rd Dark lord would be the Mouth Of Sauron, coz he was Sauron Lietenant, and Sauron was Morgoths, so that wud fit the pattern, and the Nazgul were all killed, obviously