How hard and long was it, Aragorn?
 

The words, bolded in the quote below, have annoyed me since I've first read The Council of Elrond chapter in FotR:

Why doesn't it read, 'I have had a hard and long life,' as this unwashed person would state it?

Is the wording accidental, temporal, or is there some deeper reason the phrase was formed thus?

Interesting question, alatar! *rolls up philologic sleeves*

The first thing that comes to my mind is rhythm. Consider
versus
(X for primary stress, x for secondary stress).

The first version just 'rolls' better in my ear - the length and hardness both are stressed duly without the stresses getting cramped, if you see (or rather hear) what I mean. I'm sure the Prof, like any great writer, paid close attention to such things as the rhythm of his sentences - as evidenced e.g. in Tom Bombadil's dialogue, which is for whole paragraphs in the same metre as his verse, just printed as prose.

Another aspect - I think Aragorn (or Tolkien) didn't just mean that his life was a) hard, and b) long, without the two qualities having anything closer to do with each other. Rather, he says:
"I have a hard life
[get that, Boromir, you're not the only one who's been fighting the Shadow]
and a long
[so I've been doing that for a while longer than you]."
Long gets the final stress, but it's enhanced by the preceding hard which qualifies it - meaning he hasn't just led any long life, but a hard long life, a long life full of hardship; and the rhythm, with its two carefully placed stresses, hammers the point home.

(I just lurve close reading, in case you haven't noticed.:D)

:D

I sometimes oppose to close-reading novels for litte details as such, because I have the feeling that half the time all these little bums and holes in the wording were put without intention by the author, and we are trying to make odds and ends out of them. This time, though, the wording really stands out. It could have been about rhythm, but there are so many other ways to say it with a rhythm but without the awkward phrasing (like, "My LIFE was HARD and LONG" - iambic rhythm, but rhythm nonetheless).

So it is probably the second thing that you said.

But then, the beginning of the sentence is also a bit awkward: "I have had a hard life and a long". Why "have had", and not just one or the other, or a different word altogether (like "lead")? As in, it was that way until I took the responsibility to take care of Frodo upon myself? Or meaning that he knows there's great danger ahead and his life is very likely to be cut short?

It's odd.

I can't get past the phrasing of your question, Al. ;)

:D Indeed, I've wondered as well whether Aragorn was implying anything about his long betrothal to Arwen here. 38 years, poor guy... I'm sure it could get pretty hard at times.

D'accord, if you mean that the author probably didn't ponder consciously about the wording and rhythm of every little phrase. But great writers, I think, have that kind of stuff at the tip of their little fingers and do it most of the time without having to think about it - it just feels right: like a painter knowing by intuition that a painting needs a touch of green in this precise part of the canvas, or a good guitar player bending exactly the right note in a solo. Which doesn't mean that we can't think about it and try to learn why it feels right.

Well, rhythm as I understand it here isn't about putting a phrase in any old metre to make it sound more dignified or whatever, it's about finding the right rhythm that complements and emphasizes the meaning. The two things I said are actually two aspects of the same thing.

Don't they teach you the proper use of perfect and imperfect in school nowadays?;)
He could say "I have a hard life", but then he couldn't add "and a long", because then he'd be making a general statement about his entire life, and he can't foresee how long it's going to be in the end.
If he said "I had a hard life and a long", he would be near the end of his life and looking back on the whole.
But what he's doing here, at a turning point in his life, is summing up his life so far, up to and including the present, and what it has made him: Not awkward or odd at all.

ooo me arthritis
 

I doubt Elrond & co. were too impressed by Aragorn's claim of a long life, having several thousand years on him. I'd imagine these words were spoken with a long hard look at Boromir.

The phrasing does seem archaic, even poetical, but as with the thee and thou discussion, Aragorn does seem to switch between 'casual' and 'heroic' speech patterns depending on who he's chatting with. The Council is necessarily formal, heroic and certainly archaic, or at least most of its members were!

Er, yeah Morth, was thinking that Alatar had been hijacked by spammers until I read the post :D.

No, actually. :eek: :D That is probably why a lot of second-language speakers know the grammar of that language better than native speakers.

It's just that that phrase sounds a bit like "I have had... [and now I have...]"

Or maybe, like you said, it's me mixing up my haves and hads.

"I have had a hard life and a long...." is indeed an archaic bit of English prosaic poesy, but it is ungainly. I'm too lazy to pull out Dickens, but I think he would have phrased it "I've had a hard life and long..." omitting the "a", which seems to be the awkard aspect of the clause.

To me it flows well. What I feel is missing is a comma.

"I have had a hard life, and a long."

The natural pause in the sentence is then clearly indicated to match the way I pause automatically when reading it.

Niggling
 

An unwashed (by which presumably is meant 'common') person would in Aragorn's place probably say 'My life's been long and hard'. The sentence could be phrased 'I have had a hard life and a long one', or 'A hard life and a long have I led'. None of these is incorrect, and neither is Tolkien's version. The second indirect object is indicated by the fact that here a second occurrence of 'life' has been omitted in a standard inverted elliptical construction. Tolkien typically uses inversion to emphasise the key words in his sentences; an old technique often used in Old English. This often results in sentences that are not phrased quite as they would be by a modern native speaker. Probably the best explanation for Tolkien's preference for this sort of writing is his own.

That being said, I like the fall of that sentence. For me it stands out not at all in a chapter crammed with more or less watered archaism, and it is reasonably typical of Aragorn's long speech about the part played by the Rangers in defending the North. It suits Aragorn perfectly, since during the the course of LR he uses both mildly archaic and entirely colloquial language. Tom Shippey sees his use of the former in The Council of Elrond as a response to Boromir; a tacit challenge to his grandiloquence. However, his easy use of both everyday and archaic language helps to underline the fact that Aragorn is both a legendary king in waiting and a ragged wanderer, at home in a pub in Bree just as much as in Elrond's council chamber. The relative formality and archaism of the various characters in this chapter would bear close scrutiny, but I lack the time for that this evening.

Thanks for all of the replies. :)

This unwashed reader (barely even schooled in American English) still finds the phrase grating, but now better understand that it may be Old English, as well as Tolkien's way of showing that Aragorn is a learned man from a noble family.

By the by, couldn't resist using the title - rarely can you so easily make a book quote so...ahhh...outstanding.

I reckon "I've had a hard life, and long" rolls off the tongue slightly better.

Better than "I have had a long life, and a hard", anyway. ;)

I like the fall of that sentence too, and agree with Squatter that it fits Aragorn perfectly.I never felt it was an "awkward phrasing"! Anyway, I'd like to applaud Squatter's erudite post, it gives the perfect explanation.

I love Tolkien's language and for me, it is just the use of all these contrasting styles that makes reading LotR such a pleasure and adds to the reality of the characters and to the feeling of really being in another time. (I have read too many "historical" novels where just the setting is historical but as soon as the characters speak, the atmosphere is destroyed)
It's the same with me. When first reading Tolkien, I just enjoyed his special language unconsciously, without thinking about how and why it had this effect. But then I bought Prof. Shippey's excellent book " Tolkien, author of the century" which was really an eye opener. Especially because English is not my mothertongue, I profited a lot from it.

Just one question, Guinevere: Is there any other utterance of Aragorn's or others that is so...well...different (and odd to these ears)? Why (to me) just the one?

I have a feeling that I have misread that as "a hard life and long" for years but now I look at it it does seem a bit peculiar - if you use the substitution trick - the first thing that came to mind was "I have had a red sweater and a blue"...... then it seems clear that two separate thigs are referred to as opposed to I have had a red and blue sweater. Now obviously it is far more likely that my grammar is at fault than the Prof of Philology's but it still seems peculiar.

It seems to me that "a long life and hard" is a hendiadys, of which Wikipedia says:

As Wikipedia also says on that same page, it's a figure of speech used for emphasis. Instead of saying "long, hard life," the use of a hendiadys to break up "long" and "hard" gives emphasis to both the length and hardness of the life, rather than one of them singly.

I quote Mith because I think she's right to say that it seems peculiar, because this isn't how we normally speak--but insofar as the main examples (both on Wikipedia and in the contexts in which I've learned about them) of hendiadys tend to be Biblical, epic, and Shakespearian, they are indicative more of rhetoric, perhaps, than ordinary speech.

In Aragorn's case, to emphasize both long and hard puts him in a doubly superior position towards Boromir: Aragorn is both older than Boromir (giving him more time to accumulate experience and wisdom) and has had a harder life than Boromir (giving him more "experienced experience," if you known what I mean--as well as a possible morally superior claim). Aragorn and Boromir are definitely testing each other in this early part of their relationship to establish (in cruder sociological terms) a "pecking order." Notably, I think, Boromir will ultimately accept Aragorn's superiority, as Frodo attests to Faramir.

I never heard about "hendyadis", but I agree with Formendacil about the emphasis.
Well, I am hardly competent to point out any peculiarites to an native English speaker! ;) As I said, to me it didn't seem odd at all (you could say it like that even in my Swissgerman dialect), so I can't tell what else would sound odd to you.

What I notice are the many cases of inversion (as Squatter pointed out, Tolkien often used these to emphasize key words)
e.g. "whence it came, we did not at first perceive" (Gloin speaking of the shadow of disquiet) or "too deep we delved there" "Only to the north did these tidings come" (Elrond) and Aragorn begins his answer to Boromir with "Little do I resemble the figures of Elendil and Isildur as they stand carven in their majesty..."
But I think these inversions seem less unusual to me, because in German the order of the words is much less fixed than in modern English.

Frodo tells Strider already in Bree:" You began to talk to me like the Bree folk, but your voice has changed ." And really, even then Aragorn uses "cannot" instead of "can't", "do not" instead of "don't", "let us" instead of "let's", "I will" instead of "I'll" "I think not" instead of "I don't think so" "have I not?" instead of "haven't I?" (In fact, only Hobbits and Bree-folk speak like that)

To me all this makes his speech sound more noble and ancient, and not commonplace.
Another example that comes to my mind is Faramir asking "Whence come you?" when first seeing Pippin in Minas Tirith. This is unusual in English, but the word order is exactly like in German!

(In letter #171 that Squatter quoted Tolkien gives an example of what Theoden said and of how it would sound in colloquial English. But I'd have to look that up.)

I saw this, too; Aragorn's change in manner of speech is at times very noticeable, to Frodo as well as the readers, apparently. (However, his 'default' style - sans contractions, with more inversions etc - does seem to be so that he sounds less commonplace. Especially when he is Strider and his true identity as yet unrevealed, it hints at his nobility.) Tolkien explains this in Appendix F:

Fortunately I already posted it a long time ago: Tolkien on archaism in The King of the Golden Hall

It's strange: it sounds best with the "a" to me. When I read it out loud, the "and" and "hard" are stressed, and unstressed "a" between creates a pleasing flow, whereas "and hard" just leaves an awkward pause.

With caps for stress:
i have HAD a LONG life AND a HARD

When read as "I've", it's all iambic here.

Again, thanks for all of the enlightening posts, as this tin ear has learned a lot about how this notorious phrase can sound.

But what if, and yes, this is a big if ... but what if the phrase is just a typographical error? What if a word were misplaced, mistaken or left behind entirely?

- I have had a hard **** and a long life.

- I have had a hard life and a long one.

- etc

Just saying.

That's food for thought, but the wording looks to be intentional.

In HOME 2 the so-called "Fourth version" of the events at the Council reads:

Apparently the Professor just liked the way that looked and sounded, for whatever reason.

Guinevere posted [and the Squatter also referenced]
"It's the same with me. When first reading Tolkien, I just enjoyed his special language unconsciously, without thinking about how and why it had this effect. But then I bought Prof. Shippey's excellent book " Tolkien, author of the century" which was really an eye opener. Especially because English is not my mothertongue, I profited a lot from it."

Shippey's exegesis of the Council of Elrond is really breathtaking, after reading I doubt I will ever be able to think of any of JRRT's post Hobbit writings [posthumously released or not!] as anything like accidental.

Shippey counts I reacll, 19 different idioms of english being used in the Council. Nothing was accidental. He emphasizes how the Council chapter breaks all the usual rules of storytelling and yet is one of the most riveting chapters in the Fellowship.

If one ever is tempted to feel one has struck the bottom of the barrel with LotR read his 'Author..." and/or "Road to M-E". I give his LotR insights 5 stars, not so his Silmarillion commentary which I feel is far more pedestrian, but he spends much more time on LotR anyway...

In the course of doing my reading for class today, I stumbled across a couple lines in Milton's Paradise Lost that reminded me instantly of this passage. The wording is somewhat different, but the fact that I was struck by the similarity is, by itself, an indication of something--even if it is only that I am really and truly wrecked by Tolkien for reading anything else.

O Progeny of Heav'n, Empyreal Thrones,
With reason hath deep silence and demur
Seiz'd us, though undismay'd: long is the way
And hard, that out of Hell leads up to light

Paradise Lost, Book II, 430-433 (emphasis mine)

Given the reversal of the terms "long" and "hard" in Aragorn's statement, and given the discussion already gone in this thread about how the statements sits well in archaic English, I hesitate to read too much into this chance finding. At most, it might be fair to say that I've stumbled across the still-clear shape of a leaf in the fertilizer.

On the other hand... it is tempting to see Aragorn's statement of his own journeys as his own voyage "out of Hell... up to light," and I feel like it wouldn't take much digging in the "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" to make a prima facie case of being a deliberate reuse.

In any case, I put this stumbled-upon finding out there for your edification.

I actually can't believe this. I was just about to post that, because when I was reading it, one of my first thoughts was of this thread.

I have to add to my previous contribution because... well, I am a dunce apparently--or at least an absent-minded professor. I completely glided over the fact that these lines have a footnote in my text:

Since it told me to check "III, 21", I did just that. It's part of a block of lines:

Taught by the heav'nly Muse to venture down
The dark descent, and up to reascend,
Though hard and rare: thee I revisit safe
--Paradise Lost Book III, 19-21

Now... I'm still wary of reading too much into the possibility of a connection between Tolkien's use of "hard life and long" and Milton's "long is the way, and hard," but it *is* tempting... especially since Aragorn's entire life can easily be read as a hard journey, and long, through "hell" while he waits to win to paradise: wedding to Arwen and the attendant kingship of the Reunited Kingdoms.

In any case, it reads like very possible literary leafmould...

Yeah, this unwashed snagged that on my first reading in 1976, and my brain automatically inserts 'one' at the end to have it make sense to me. Always thought it was an editing miss myself.
:smokin:

*The Dark Elf drags out the dead horse once again from the floor of the glue factory*

I was reading Boccaccio's Decameron as translated by John Payne last night, and lo and behold! what should I find staring up at me from the Ninth Story on Day the Tenth:

It would seem Professor Tolkien stands in some august literary company.

While rereading The Hobbit, I found a similar sentence - and that's in a children's book! Tolkien does make sure he provokes linguistic growth in his readers...
I would agree that the usage is primarily about rhythm.

Give him a break
 

Leave him alone! He HAS had a hard and long life and it doesn't really matter how he says it if he is telling the truth.

Noone has said Aragorn is lying. The thread is discussing Tolkien's use of language which is quite important in a literary work: particularly perhaps in one written by a professor of Philology.

So, Mith, are you saying the previous poster had a misconception and a wrong? :D

Aragorn's feet should be held to the fire for his grammatical gobbledygook! Make the rogue have to wear wooden sh... oh, right. Never mind ;)

I know that but i was just defending my imaginary lover!

I have just finished re-reading The Hobbit and noted the same sentence as Esty did! Was just coming here to point it out but I find she got there first. :( Ah well. Makes sense to me all the same!

I have to say the title of this thread is so funny. I don't know how anyone could think differently from the thread's title and the author's intent. haha

Aragorn, after 87 celibate years, you describe your life however you choose buddy...

Well, you could liken life to male genitalia: simple, soft, straight, relaxed and hanging freely. Then women comes along, and it becomes hard. Hard and long.

:eek: