One thing I wanted to mention, but didn't because again did not want to influence the decision...but...

"extraordinary" always confuses me, especially when I separate the pronunciation to "extra" "ordinary"...because I just think this isn't a word that means special or distinguished. Shouldn't it just mean something is ordinary, only more so?

Therefore, probably would have gone with the Green Dragon, since nothing can be more ordinary than a good inn :)

They may not have been drawn back-to-back, but still would have been close together.

I drew the first 20 but tossed some that didn't make any sense to have like "chewy" and some of the doubled ones like "conceited" and "arrogant."

You tossed "chewy"? :(

I think something so absurd would be bound to be fun. :p (Or actually Lembas could've been played with complete seriousness.)

I could always add it back on if there is a round 21, or insert add it randomly in before, ya know. ;)

Now, on to violent...

To be perfectly honest I did not play my best card for this one. I judged it would very likely be the most appropriate card on the list from a true and objective point of view (and looking at the list I'd say I was right), however I wasn't certain that Lottie would judge so straightforward and also figured no one would play a bad card this round, thus stiff competition. So I saved that card.

Now, onto the cards that were played. I'd say Lottie has a difficult choice. For what it's worth here are my musings...

VIOLENT, BUT NOT THE FIRST IMAGE THAT POPS TO MIND

MENEGROTH- Violence did happen at Menegroth a couple times, but that isn't its natural state, nor is that the image that leaps to mind. Rather, one thinks of the beautiful halls and the majesty of Elwe and Melian.

BATTLE OF BYWATER- It'd be silly of me to say a battle isn't violent, but after the grand scale of the war against Sauron this little skirmish pales, not to mention the constant restraint of violence preached by Frodo before, during, and after the battle. Plus- Hobbits. It just doesn't resonate.

BEORN- Certainly the thought of him crashing through the Goblin lines to slay Bolg spells violence, but I would feel unfair labeling him as such, as he's capable of great kindness as well. If the tater was "amusingly rude" then I'd be more on board.

TAR-MINASTIR- The only real connection to violence is that one time he sent soldiers to protect the Elves from Sauron, and he didn't even go in person.

GORGOROTH- Barren, extreme, depressing, etc. are the words that pop to mind first. In the war at the end of the second age violence was certainly done upon Gorgoroth, but for hundreds of years before and after it was either empty or owned by Sauron rather than being a land in contention.

CONTENDERS

UNGOLIANT- Perhaps gnawing and hungry are more perfect, but her desire to consume things certainly led to violence against everyone she encountered, and frankly her devouring ways are violent in themselves (biting/ripping/crushing). She has to be considered.

TULKAS- An interesting selection as the representation of positive force, or violence for the sake of good- a reminder that violence need not have only negative associations.

BATTLE OF PELENNOR FIELDS- It was a massive battle and a great deal of destruction and death took place. It's not what leaves the lasting impression (rather the glorious Rohirrim rescue and the joy at the unveiling of the fleet's flags etc. leave an overall positive feeling), but the sheer number of casualties cannot be discounted.

EOL- His hostility towards the Noldor, his semi-abduction of a Noldorin princess (obviously his lust overcame his Noldor-hate), and finally the attempted murder of his son and resulting murder of his wife right in the throne-room of Gondolin and subsequent execution via being tossed off a cliff... This card was well selected.

AR-PHARAZON- A similarly good selection here, with his hostility towards Elves/Valar/the Faithful, his forced marriage to the rightful queen, his military building and conquering of Sauron, and his eventual attempt to seize Valinor from Manwe and company resulting in a violent reshaping of the seas... Violent definitely fits him.

I believe both Barad-dur and Mt. Doom were located on Gorgoroth. If the plateau wasn't violent itself, it certainly contained great violence, being both an unstable, volcanically active area and the lair of a demonic supervillain who is arguably responsible for most of the violence that occurred in Middle-earth.

I would also argue that Beorn is considerably more violent than Eol on pretty much all levels. Higher kill count. Uses claws and fangs, rather than poison darts. Impales victims remains on front gate. Is essentially part wild animal. And I can't imagine that transformation being particularly peaceful either...

In RL, my judging style involves a lot of taking cards and flinging them over my shoulders saying "no" in a bored tone. Ergo:

Ungoliant: Mmmmmmno.
Menegroth: No.
Tulkas: I'm getting a delightful image of a smiling giant skipping through a field of daisies, bashing in Orc-heads with a warhammer while humming the Little Bunny Foo Foo song. Tulkas stays for now.
Battle of Pelennor Fields: Mmmmmmm...maybe.
Battle of Bywater: For now, it stays, but more for the amusing factor of war-hobbits than any real violence-related reasons.
Eol: OH yes he stays.
Ar-Pharazon: I've always seen him as a bit of a puppet-figure. No.
Beorn: Not cuddly enough to make 'violent' amusing, not evil enough to make 'violent' horrifically appropriate. He bores me. No.
Tar-Minastir: Yeah no.
Gorgoroth: No.

The contenders thus far: Tulkas, the Battle of Pelennor Fields, the Battle of Bywater, and Eol.

Awwww, come on, that's a boring way to go about it! Eol's violence was so much more...gloriously unpredictable. You knew he was gonna do something, but what he ended up doing was always unexpected anyway. ^.^

I like the geological justification for Gorgoroth, but as far as tying it directly to the elsewhere-occuring deeds of Sauron due to proximity to his fortress... That would be like choosing the Misty Mts for "Quick" due to the fact that the speedy Great Eagles happened to make nests in a couple spots in the midst of the range.

I don't like the idea of having too many tie-ins. To choose Gorgoroth it itself must be defined as violent rather than equating ->
Gorgoroth = Barad-Dur = Sauron = His armies = Violence
If we're going by kill count then why the heck support Beorn? Pelennor Fields dwarfs his kill count, and frankly everyone's kill count put together.

Plus, violence includes an aspect of attitude and potential. If a repeat murderer is locked in a cell and thus can no longer kill people, is he no longer violent? (Since he's not actively engaging in violence.) Obviously, the answer is no. Attitude and potential counts.

Thus with your example of comparing Beorn to Eol, while Eol did not spend a great deal of time killing things, there was a constant underlying threat of force in the captivity of his wife and son, not to mention his use of violence was, as Lottie said, so interestingly inappropriate and unpredictable. Similarly, Beorn may have had a higher "kill count" than Ungoliant, but surely given the opportunity she had the attitude to rack up higher numbers.

And as far as "claws and fangs" go, method of expression is unimportant. I mean honestly, is a kitten that plays pouncing games more violent than Gothmog due to the kitten using claws and teeth and Gothmog utilizing weapons? Preposterous! Violence is force, and that can come across in varied ways, and the tip of an arrow is an equally effective transfer of force compared to claws. The word isn't "wild" or "animal".

Beorn is just too funny and likable at other moments, I think.

Violent (furious, vicious, destructive)

Battles are violent by definition, so a battle offered here as an example of violence should have more to offer than the Battle of Bywater - unless you took the sarcastic mode. But also more than the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Like everything else also battles waned as the ages piled up and the main battle of the third age is more or less but child's play compared to those of the second or first age: think of the Valar and Maiar clashing in the first wars - or all the great Noldorin heroes clashing with Balrogs and other Maiar creatures - and the numbers of elves, men, dwarves, orcs, creatures of any kind going down in those battles. Compared with those the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is child's row at the sandbox.

I would discard the battles then.

I would also discard Menegroth and the plains of Gorgoroth as they were just places and places are not violent but creatures doing things in those places.

What tp said about Tar Atanamir is to the point. But with Ar Pharazôn I'd have to disagree with him and remind you that he wasn't that violent as a person. You could say he was lots of bad stuff, also vicious and destructive, but one should fill the main adjective (violent) first and then get support from the other ones - if the judge is willing to consider them. So I'd discard the Númenorians as well.

That would leave me four choices to whom violence would fit.

Ungoliant
Tulkas
Eol
Beorn

So how about the other / supporting / explanatory / widening adjectives?

Eöl could be said to be vicious in a way and maybe furious, and destructive... well, maybe. But it is clear he has those qualities on a lesser level compared to the other candidates.

Tulkas and Beorn are furious and destructive but not so much vicious. But what they lack in viciousness they gain monumentally by their erraticness or unpredictableness. Both seemed to have this berserk-rage when they didn't quite control themselves - remember Gandalf telling Bilbo & the dwarves not to go out when Beorn was there in a Bear-form but on their peril.

Ungoliant, not surprisingly, seems to fit all the adjectives. Her fury was such that she even challenged Melkor himself, her destructiviness such that she drained all the light from the world - and vicious enough to spawn a whole race of spiders in her bitter hatred against not only the goodies but baddies as well...

Although if one just stresses "violence" I'd pick Tulkas or Beorn. But Ungoliant looks like the perfect pick otherwise.

A predatory animal like a bear is, by its nature, thoroughly and essentially violent. Its entire existence revolves and depends on killing other creatures. It begins and ends in blood, and this was, at some level, a part of Beorn's identity.

Eol, on the other hand, only ended his life with violence. He was a resentful, manipulative being gone wrong, not a suppressed serial killer.

It looks like I and tp have some differences of view regarding Eöl and Beorn. :)

Let me put it this way then.

Eöl was so violent he tried to kill one person - a child with a poisoned spear (what was it about going for someone of your size?) but ended up killing his wife being not able to even do that. Meanwhile Beorn more or less single-handedly won the battle of the Five Armies... skinning wargs and hanging orc-heads on pikes for his passtime when there was not a major battle around.

So talking about violence then? ;)


That said, I do refer to my earlier post and say I like Tulkas as a candidate - and Ungoliant sure looks like the perfect one (all adjectives considered).

EDIT: X'd (and agreed) with Gwath...

Yeah, if it was me judging, I would definitely pick Ungoliant.

If I was judging I would have this head-ache -producing three-way tie between Ungoliant, Tulkas and Beorn.

Ungoliant fits all the four adjectives while Tulkas and Beorn "fail" with viciousness. But then again what we're after is something that is essentially "violent". So one thing you should ask yourself before choosing is whether that one you consider picking is "essentially violent", that it's essence is in its violence?

Looked at from that POV it becomes harder to make a choice. Ungoliant is the "light-eater", the gluttonous package of later fury and hatred. No one can say she is not violent, but violence is probably not her deepest describing quality.

With Tulkas you have this Thor-like Godness, the "Hammer of Justice" at the essence that might or might not weigh more than his way of reaching those ends with violence and open confrontation.

With Beorn you have this doppelgänger-role, this Janus-face where the other side is a vegetarian Mr. Nice and the other is the Berserker-Bear whose wrath breaks down whole armies (or skins the poor Wargs).


So to me it would be a tough call.

Ungoliant - I would say she's evil, but not violent. She wants to devour everything, but that just in itself does not qualify for me as violent.

Menegroth - I just don't get it.

Tulkas - I like this choice, since, as was said before, he is an example of positive violence. The Sil says that he is not violent unless provoked by something, and when he is - pray to god you're faster than him!

Battle of Pelennor Fields - I get the reasoning behind choosing what looks like the bloodiest battle of the Third Age, but at the same time it just lacks something.

Ar-Pharazon and Tar-Minastir - saying that they are not violent is like saying it's not Hitler's fault. If you're not holding the sword/gun yourself doesn't mean you have no part in it. Saying that, I'm not sure if Minastir can be called violent at all, since sending troops to help out Gil-Galad seems common sense rather than violence to me.

Battle of Bywater - I guess it could go in history as one of the least violent battles ever, which makes the choice funny. But don't forget that it is probably the most violent thing that ever happened according to your avrage hobbit.

Eol - I'd say he fits better under "insane" than "violent".

Beorn - like Tulkas, he has his fits of violece. He can be an old grandpa figure one moment, and a raging bear another.

Gorgoroth - another one that I just don't get.




I would not judge violence by the scale of it or by death count. For example, Ungoliant destroyed the two trees, but how? By sucking juice? It's an evil deed, but not exactly a violent one. Tulkas, on the other hand, doesn't really kill anyone/anything, but he does get quite violent when he's angry.

I still don't like Ungoliant as a choice. I struggle to call a spider violent. Terrifying, perhaps, evil, perhaps, but not truly violent.

The Battles are what they are, and, as battles, are at essense violent - but I'm just not feeling it. Battles are out - Tulkas and Eol remain as choices.

Indeed, Tulkas and Eol would've been my pet selections (along with Ar Pharazon) had I been choosing. Eliminating any of them would've been tough, but yes, probably Ar Phar gets the boot first, and then from the remaining two it would've been up to my mood whether I felt like picking the dark character or the good guy.

I feel fortunate I elected not to send my first choice tater, as seeing what has happened I definitely believe it would've fallen by the way alongside the Battle of the Pelennor Fields- which would've been a waste as it is a rather good tater. There ought to be a good opportunity to play it later....

That rhymed.

And the winner (because I should be online before noon, but I won't take the chance) is...Eol!

Eol, to me, demonstrates a more violent nature in his unpredictability. Tulkas' nature is not violent, though his actions sometimes are - he's more the sort to sing a Happy Fighting Song while swiming his Happy Fighting Hammer and then go back home and be still essentially calm at nature. Ergo, Eol wins!

the phantom scored third, right?

Prince Boromir the 88th regrets to inform you that his internet has become infested with pixies, and that he is currently unavailable. He wishes to extend his congratulations to the phantom for yet another victory (:rolleyes:), and assures me that he will return at his earliest convenience, at which time shenanigans will resume.

Didn't I say that! :smokin:

I have nothing against the phantom winning a game, but hey, this game ends with the next tp victory... :(

So it is pretty simple: if you want to play the game, don't go with the phantom any more. Thus far it has not been too hard to read (well of course he will change from openly supporting any of his candidates from now on...). If you want this to end though, then do vote his candidate - and make all of us others who'd wish to continue with the game mad... :rolleyes:


Btw. if we're going to take another round of this, I'd suggest we don't make a "winning condition" but will play for any predeterminend number of rounds (twenty - thirty?) whatever way the taters go. When playing this live I'm actually not interested in who got how many taters and if possible would prefer them not to be counted in the end, but well, here that is kind of impossible - as knowing any round's winner is an important part of the game - whereas in a long RL game you forget who has won and how much so you could actually end the game without knowing who "won" overall - which would be just fine.

A game that ends prematurely is always a disappointment.

Kudos to the phantom though, nicely played.

Will post new information up shortly.

I was not anticipating having so many connection issues at my new place. So, pretty much 4pm EST (8pm GMT) is one of the times I can guarantee to have internet. DL will be then.

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent) -I don't think any of these contradict :eek:
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)
Nogrod - 1 (Extraordinary)

-----

ROUND 8

Menel you're to pick the winner of "peaceful" :cool:

Pippin
Thingol
The Sea
Dorwinion
Mawe
Lothlorien
Bombur
Miruvor
Asfaloth
Minas Tirith

----

ROUND 9

Green Tater: Charming (pleasant, polite)
Judge: Kitanna

----

Apologies again, I think for future games at this, a co-mod would be fantastic to have. But to avoid more snags...4pm EST I can be assured of having a reliable connection so have Round 9 PMed to me by then (8pm GMT)

Sending out new red taters now.

Mawe? Is that meant to be Manwe?

Thank you, Lottie. Well chosen!

And what- the game ends if I win again? Surely we'll play more, yes?
Unless he says otherwise, I'm assuming.

So, on to peaceful...

Wow. These are all awful.

PIPPIN- This little guy spilled the guts of orcs, trolls, and men, and when killing men in the Shire specifically Frodo had to be the voice of restraint to stop Pip and the other Hobbits from just killing everyone.
THINGOL- Overly prideful chap- basically demanded the death of Beren for daring to love his daughter, and certainly killed his share of orcs and such in his day, aside from being in a perpetual state of war.
THE SEA- Aside from storms killing people and the wave the drowned all of Numenor...
DORWINION- Um, there were grapes there, and, um... that's all I know.
MANWE- Went to battle against Melkor, which was hardly peaceful, and then proceeded to sit around idly for the rest of the ages rather than bringing peace to Middle-Earth.
LOTHLORIEN- Peaceful, except all their march-wardens patrolling about to kill intruders, be they Orcs or Men or whatever, and occasionally fighting with Dol Guldur.
BOMBUR- Involved with quite a bit of non-peaceful activities- fighting, running from things, battling, etc. as evidenced by his desire to stay enchanted when he finally found peaceful magic sleep in Mirkwood.
MIRUVOR- Specifically designed to help people make it through extremely non-peaceful ordeals.
ASFALOTH- He took Glorfindel from place to place for the purpose of fighting, chasing, and fleeing in terror.
MINAS TIRITH- Peaceful except when looking east and seeing Mordor which could (and did) attack at any moment, including the biggest battle of the age.

So yeah. I think we need a do-over. I couldn't pick any of these.

STRAIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE
Pippin - He was a warrior, sure, but all hobbits are ultimately peaceful creatures.
Lothlorien - Like being at home and on holiday at the same time.
Bombur - As sedentary as they come.

CURVE BALLS
Dorwinion - Don't know about Dorwinion itself, but Dorwinion wine certainly makes sleepy drunks. I like it.
Asfaloth - Probably the smoothest ride in Middle-earth aside from Shadowfax.
Thingol - Had his share of conflicts, but also spent two decades in a trance.

MISS
The Sea - This is the body of water that swallowed Numenor whole.
Manwe - Peace-loving, yes, but involved in too many earth-shaking conflicts to be considered peaceful.
Minas Tirith - A perennial war zone.
Miruvor - ...

Pippin - him? Peaceful? Nah. You must be confusing him with someone else. The most boysterous hobbit of all ages.

Thingol - hmm, I suppose he can't be called overly aggressive, but at the same time can't say he's overly peaceful either.

The Sea - well, honestly speaking, with the help of Osse the Sea is quite unruly at times, yet I would put a ++ with this choice just because this resonates so much. Also you could say that while the Sea can awaken Sea-longing, travelling West over the Sea cures it, giving one's mind peace.

Dorwinion - it has a big wine industry. Like that helps.

Manwe - see Thingol.

Lothlorien - definitely a peaceful haven for Frodo and company, but look at it from the Elves' POV - they are so harrassed by enemies they can't even allow Gimli to go through without a blindfold!

Bombur - definitely peaceful when asleep.

Miruvor - peaceful miruvor. Peeeeaceful miruvor. Peaceful miruvooooor. Nah.

Asfaloth - I'd say Fatty Lumpkin would have been a better choice.

Minas Tirith - a peaceful Minas Tirith: *sigh* the dream of every Gondorian! (and a dream come true too!)

This thread. It is much too peaceful. Not one player has died horribly on this thread yet. :mad:

*is in WW withdrawal*

I'll have to go with ++Bombur on this. Poor guy kept getting dragged into terrible things through no fault of his own, and he's easily the least violent of the choices presented.
There were two runners-up: Dorwinion, whatever its wine may have been like, was likely an Easterling realm or bordering on one, and those were hardly peaceful during the days of Sauron. Miruvor is basically neutral; it's peacefulness depends on the occasion.

Ah-ha, I think Kath plans on starting her WW game soon :)

And Nogrod now has 2 with his choice of Bombur. May continue discussion of this round and previous rounds until 4 (roughly 3 hours and 30 mins)

Yeah- Bombur was probably my number 2 or 3, so no complaints. I probably would've selected Miruvor- associations with Elrond and Rivendell, ya know...

Haha. Thanks Menel for a wise choice... :)

I was actually quite unsure I had made a good pick, but my other taters weren't allowing me too much leeway on "peaceful". Now that I saw all the choices I actually think it was pretty good indeed. I mean yes, he was mainly sleeping all the time whether he should have walked, fought or guard places! Which were the other adjectives? Serene, restful, calm... restful... :rolleyes:

Now this is the flavour of the game: sometimens you think you have the "killer-choice" and no one even notices it because there are so many better ones to pick from - and on other times you think you made a mediocre pick at best and it turns out the best on the board...


On another issue. If no one disagrees I'd suggest we keep on playing the twenty rounds (?) Boro has prepared whether phantom (or someone else) gains the four wins the initial rules required to end the game or not.

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent)
Nogrod - 2 (Extraordinary, Peaceful)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)
Nogrod - 1 (Extraordinary)

-----

ROUND 9

Kitanna, your charming charmers:

Nienor
Saruman
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Faramir
Spiders of Mirkwood
Galadriel
Bard
Melian
Old Man Willow
Huor

----

ROUND 10

Green tater: Ridiculous (absurd, ludicrous, preposterous)
Judge: Gwath

I would not have a problem with that at all. :D

Nienor
Saruman
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Faramir
Spiders of Mirkwood
Galadriel
Bard
Melian
Old Man Willow
Huor


I'd say Spiders are just too funny to pass by, and Saruman and Old Man Willow are perhaps charming in another sense (and woe to those who they choose to charm!). That's my $0.02 on the matter.

Just a short one before going to sleep...

My intitial reaction exactly. Thinking of the Spiders of Mirkwood described with the word "charming" just made me smile widely - and Saruman and Old Man Willow sure have their "charms" in a most fitting way...

On top of that I thought "then well, what?"

But looking at them now again I must say that this looks like a really hard round to judge as most of the choices actually make good claims for being considered as "charming".

I mean aren't Faramir and Bard the Bowman just the "prince charmings"? Or didn't Melian's power reside in her charms - or Galadriel's to that matter?

Not to talk of Nienor being "charmless"... which would sound like an insult.

All right, let's group 'em and whittle these down.

Charming.

THE LADIES
Nienor
Galadriel
Melian

All could stake a claim to it- lovely people inside and out. But I'd say Melian clearly emerges, with her goddess-like state of being. Clearly trumps Galadriel anyway since she's sort of a Melian-lite.

THE GUYS
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Faramir
Bard
Huor

Of the Prince Charming candidates I think Faramir works best from a realistic perspective due to how well we know him, but he's in the shadow of Aragorn in his own time and the Gondolin-dwelling Huor probably surpassed him as well though we don't have as clear a vision of him. There isn't a clear Melian here. So honestly I'd pick Ghan-Buru-Ghan and Bard- GBG has a unique quality and humor to him given his culture and manner of speaking etc., and Bard is so connected to being grim and a downer that charming has some humor to it.

THE OTHERS
Spiders of Mirkwood
Old Man Willow
Saruman

It's tough to eliminate any of these, honestly. With Saruman- it's just so darn true. If we're going by real standards he'd have to be picked I think. Old Man Willow is similarly charming (lure then strike), and just calling a tree "charming" is funny. And the Spiders of course are potentially the least charming of all, thus they work from a contradictory stand-point. Ugh... I suppose we'll toss the Spiders (since we can't debate them very well) with the understanding that Kit is justified in picking them out of nowhere due to humor.

So, the FINALISTS...

Melian
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Bard
Saruman
Old Man Willow

(emphasis mine)

Now why did that make me go "wait...what?" :rolleyes:-->at self

Short on time at the moment, so here I go...

In the running:
Saruman- He could pretty much charm the pants off of anyone. Even in defeat he still managed to sway the men of Rohan before Gandalf opened his own mouth.

Ghan-Buri-Ghan - Because it made me laugh. I'd call him rustic, but that can have its own charm.

Faramir - When comparing him to his family he certainly has a certain way about him. He manages to put complete strangers at ease.

Galadriel - It's hard for a fair elf queen such as her not to be charming. And she was hospitable to the Fellowship when she didn't have to be.

Old Man Willow - So charming he puts everyone to sleep. Three Hobbits succumbed to his charms after all.

I guess it bears mentioning that the green tater "defined" charming here as "pleasant, polite" - or does that not need to be followed necessarily? Because in that case, Saruman was hardly pleasant or polite, at least in the latter part of his life.

I think there is room for personal decision here.

I myself have always thought that you try to get the main definition right first - and if and when there are some competing choices then I'd bring on the other definitions to bear as well. But I shouldn't pick one which is spot on or hilarious with the second or third but doesn't fit the prime-definition at all.

But I also have the feeling some people just ignore the second and third definitions - which is perfectly okay if they want to do it. There is no rule, I think, that would require you to pay heed to the other definitions - even if I myself consider them as well when making decisions as the judge (or I see making suggestions in this kind of a game :rolleyes:).