I don't believe this
I weas just searching on the net, and I found this site that says Harry Potter and LOTR are evil.
Now, I am a very religious person, and I think HP is wrong(though I don't hate people who read it), but LOTR evil?!? What is your opinion of the webmaster's opinions, and what do you think makes him think that LOTR is evil? Personally, I don't think he has researched or even read a chapter of HP or LOTR. |
HP & LOTR are quite different. While J.K. Rowling researched 'black magic' stuff to insert into her books, Tolkien simply wrote from his Christian faith. I don't think that you can consider LOTR evil, unless you have a major thing against wizards ( who are not the same as sorcerers )... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
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For goodness sake, isn't there enough evil actually occurring in the world, without reading it into perfectly harmless books? Why can't these people devote their energies into addressing the tangible wrongs that are happening here and now, rather than making wholly misguided attempts to brand anything that they don't agree with, or which doesn't conveniently fit into their own comfortable little belief system, as evil?
Child molesters are evil. Brutal dictators are evil. Serial killers are evil. JRRT and JKR are not evil. Mind you, this loony is right in one rather twisted way. If you think that the HP books are encouraging people into the ways of Satan, then the logical extension of that argument is that JRRT's works are too. The problem is that his arguments aren't logical, or even remotely rational. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Edit: Quote:
From The Hobbit, Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire: Quote:
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~Menelien [ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ] |
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(I've calmed down about it now. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) |
Wow these people are religious to the extreme! Im a christain myself and my mother and i both agree that harry potter is revolved around witchcraft. But lotr..well she doesnt like the idea of magic and wizards but i try to explaian that JRRT WAS a christain. The story has alot of christain ideas in it. And that Gandalf wasnt a wizard like in harry potter. He is an Istari..like an angelic being as i once heard them being referred.
Okay thats my 2 cents...please dont attack me! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] |
As I strongly disagree with everything the writer Alan Yusko has to say, I am going to attempt to put up a fair argument here:
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-Wizards were known to find lost objects or missing persons, detect criminals, cure illnesses, tell fortunes, and make charms or amulets to ward off natural or supernatural harm. -It seems to me that neither types of these "white" witches or wizards were evil. -Also, much of the stories of magic, spells, witchcraft, etc. originated from myths from ancient Greece, before the rise of Christianity. (Source: The Sorcerer's Companion by Allan Zola Kronzek and Elizabeth Kronzek) Quote:
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Also, statistics have shown that teens have grown stronger in their Christian faith these last few years. Christian rock has grown popular. Church and prayer groups have been started in some schools. And most of all, teens have grown more active in their churches. Quote:
Honestly, I think the writer of this article is just paranoid. Like most of those who believe that HP and LOTR are work of the devil, I doubt he has even picked up either of these books in his life. He makes assumptions from reviews and pictures he has seen from the movies. I pity people like this writer, because they do not know what they are missing out on. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] |
Ah Brinniel I fully agree with you on this matter.
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I am a Christian myself and I love the Lord of the rings and to be honest I enjoyed Harry Potter to [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]. Many other Christians look at me strangely when I say I enjoyed Harry Potter but there are many Christians in my church that are LotR fans. Harry Potter, is magical and is witchcraft but it is just child’s play. Everyone has there own view on Harry Potter, some say it is evil some say it was excellent and some say it was a lovely fun movie (like I, but I am not crazy about it, I enjoyed it I’ll go see the next one but it’s not like my favourite like LotR is of course [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). I understand where some people get the concept that Harry Potter is evil, but LotR? LotR is set in a magical land that does not exist it takes you to a different world. There is nothing wrong with Elf’s and Hobbits, they are all fantasy creatures, unlike Harry Potter witchcraft does exist! So where do they get the concept that LotR is evil? In the blackriders? I doubt it! But my mom has always said, if you look hard enough one shall always find evil in everything…. You can decide for yourself whether that is true or not? In my opinion us humans still do not really know what is good and what is evil and we then point fingers and say “Oh that is evil” and we don’t really understand what evil and good truly are. Ok so we know a little like lying is evil… no wait it is not evil it is wrong!!!
Are good and evil absolute or are they relative to the conditions associated with time and place? Do conditions surrounding a particular situation make an act good and at another time make it evil? Does an act appear to be good in the overall perspective, but when torn away from its environment appear to be evil? If good and evil are independent, do they have the same creator? Or is God the Creator of good alone? If so, who has created evil? If the knowledge of good and evil is instinctive, there should be uniformity of thought between various nations, religions and groups; but there are vast differences among them in almost every aspect. What are the reasons? Is the concept of good and evil imbued in the nature of man or has he been given divine guidance? If not, how are good and evil identified? If reason is the only guide, are there some criteria to determine what is good and what is evil? |
YES!! I agree with you Nil! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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I don't agree with some thinbgs in HP, but it's OK if people read it, because it's their choice. If it doesn't appeal, don't read it. If you find it appeals to you, go on, read it!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] But i still can't believe some people think LOTR is evil..... |
There is no way that LotR could be evil. Tolkien had a very strong belief in Christianity so there is no possible way that LotR is evil. Harry Potter is not black magic.
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Its going to kill me to say this, but harry Potter is not evil. As much as i hate it, I havent got the heart to say that it is truley evil, or even bad. However, I have not read these books, so I cannot have much of an argument for them.
I can see where he is coming from with lord of the rings, though. If you went searching for it, many things in LOTR hint at what he is calling witchcraft. Galadriels scrying pool is often thought of as pagan, and in his opinion, evil. Alot of LOTR is structured around the five elements of fire, water, earth, air and spirit. It is just as easy to see it as a pagan work as a christian work. However, the writer of this artical does not go into any of this, showing that he has no knowlage of the occult anyway.It also suggests that he has never read LORT or Harry potter. Another pagan thing in LOTR is the personification of these elements. It clearly says that hobbits refer to the sun as she. When Tolkien says that the woods are listening, he is not using a metephore. But this does not make it evil.That would make evryone who absent mindedly said sorry to the chair the bumped into evil, everyone that refered to his/her car as a she. I would just like to know, how is it that everything has to be pagan or chriastian. Does it not occure to this person that perhaps Tolkien and JK Rowling did not astop to wonder if their writing was supporting a certain religion? Perhaps they just wrote it. You could go back on any writing and find something christian and something pagan. He only sees it in these two books because they are in the public eye at the moment. Knowing me, i just repeated what everyone esle said. Well, great minds think like if I did. [ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: eleanor_niphredil ] |
LOTR is not evil. If you think about it, the Istari are more like the angels they were sent to Middle-Earth to be rather than wizards, which only Men and Hobbits call them. And Harry Potter? Don't even go there with me. The books were fine, but the movies were soooooo bad...
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Harry Potter? Evil? I refuse to believe that.
Lotr? Evil? Its quite dark, yes, but not evil. Fantasy novels have dark moments. Its almost essential in a good heroic story. |
Well, that made me laugh out loud. It was very difficult to have even the slightest respect for the writer's opinion - since for me, it mostly seemed to revolve around 'Harry Potter and LOTR are occultic' yet he never gave the slightest bit of evidence from either to back this up. I hate arguments with no evidence [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] If you must argue, do it properly.
In any case, I simply CAN'T understand how LotR can be viewed as evil. Not because good wins over evil - but did the writer of that article pay the slightest attention to how good won over evil? It wasn't through occultic practises, or spells (even if Gandalf helped them along occasionally) it was through will power and strength of heart, and all those other qualities that are good. Not by the occult. I strongly advise Alan Yusko to firstly, read the books that he is condemning so strongly (of course, he never will) and then, hopefully having learned something, attempt to back up his argument with evidence. Oh, and there is ALWAYS room for debate. It annoyed me when he said that...it just seems so close-minded. There is no clear right or wrong. |
As a huge fan of both HP and LOTR I can safe with absolutely no doubt that neither are evil. Both books are very similar in many common themes (such as friendship and loyalty even in diffcult times, and following what is the good and right thing to do eben though it may be diffcult). How can two bokks that support ideas such as good wins over evil, kindness, loyalty, friendship be considered evil.
From a literary point of view, both books follow a specific hero archetype where an unassuming hero must somehow save the world at a sacrifice to themselves. This is actually a common theme in literture, especially when magic is used as a background. I do not wish to get into a debate, and yes this is not a HP board, but I must respond tho those on this site who say that HP is evil, about witchcraft, etc. It is not about evil or witchcraft. As LOTR fans, you might notice that in all of literature, not just these two books, magic is used as SYMBOL!, not meant to be taken literally. Neither the magic of Gandalf of the magic in LOTR encourages any belief in evil, of satanism what so ever. If you believe that crap ( as in the false information, not an insult to the belief, because she has stated that she does not believe in magic) that JKR used black magic in her books, worships the devil, etc then you are very sadly mistaken. That is propaganda from people like the guy who wrote that article. Just like LOTR, hp has roots in lore and mythology. Magic is a backdrop, not the focus. I just couldn't stand for you to be continuly misinformed and perhaps help fuel the fire that HP is evil when it is clearly not. (If it matters at all, I am a devout christian) BOTH authors encourage good values and morals that everyone can follow, no matter what your religion. Magic is a symbol in these books! [ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: Katherine712 ] [ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: Katherine712 ] |
I had written quite a long and ranting tirade against this witless fundamentalist fool, but then i realised whats the point. He has convinced himself that we are wrong and he is right. His "arguments" are a flawless if you disagree you are in league with the devil etc...
What can you say to a man like this, nothing at all, so frankly i would prefer to say nothing at all about his pathetic arguments. I despise these biggoted Fundamentalist fools that spout lies. All they do is tell people how evil they are without first looking at what they do themselves. They kill abortion doctors because they think only God has the right to take away a life, they they hypocriticaly go and kill the abortion doctor. I hate them and their self rightous BS Sorry about that i had intended to just write a little bit, but i got so angry that i sorta went out on a rant again. Oh yeah i know a lot of people have strong views on abortion, i'm not condeming you if you are for or against it, just the hypocrites that kill in the name of God |
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As for the guy who wrote it- I think he must have been very strictly educated... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] ~Menelien |
I actually understand that person's point of view. Firstly, he has probably been brought up a strict Christian, and so is going to try and promote righteousness. He has been brought up to believe that anything to do with magic is evil. I can understand that he would stick to this belief- like if you'd been brought up to love and respect your parents, and lots of people started telling you bad things about them, you'd naturally
a)not believe it b)try and change their minds However (this is a very big "however"), I do not like the fact that he seems to have given himself the right to tell others whether God accepts them or not, and whether they are serving Him as they should do ("If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! ")-that to me is a form of blasphemy, to give yourself status high enough to be able to say what God finds good/bad. I myself am at the moment becoming more Christian (reading the Bible, praying, and starting to generally find out about Him) and I do not feel that this man has any right to tell me, without any evidence, substantial or not, that because I have read the LotR and HP books and liked them (even if this was before I found God) I am automaticaly and irreversibly hellbound. The sad thing is that he will never read the books because this, from his point of view, will make him a "God-hater"-not because he'll miss out on great works of Literature, but that he'll continue blackmouthing them unsupportedly and unjustly in my view until he dies. Also, I love the way he insults Tolkien: Quote:
P.S. I think this thread is great, but I also think that if the angry smilies and theological aspects of it get too much, it will be closed down and fall into darkness. |
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This is legalism in it finest hour. Also this is what gives Christians a bad name. So many of these people believe that if you so much as look at the book you are no longer a Christian. So much of your salvation rests on works and other STUPID cercumsatial stuff that if they looked at themselves in the mirror some old Pharisee would be looking right back at him. Quote:
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But this is what I have read concerning Tolkien and magic. Quote:
I think that sums up a lot. The other thing that I want to point out is that this person who wrote this, is not being kind. Quote:
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Edit. another paper of stuidity. And oha yes: Quote:
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[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ] |
Oh i dont think harry potter is EVIL. I just dont think its for me and i dont like some of the ideas of the story. And CERTAINLY the people who read it arent evil! What you read doesnt really decide what kind of person you are and some radicalists who say that are wrong in my opinion.
Okay i just didnt want you guys to think i hated Hp and its readers hehe [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] |
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~Menelien [ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ] |
Hahahahahahaha, that was the funniest website I've seen in ages, surely it has to be a windup? I can't believe anyone with the basic intelligence to find the 'on' switch of a computer would post this sort of lunatic rant seriously. Almost as good as one I found a few years ago denouncing 'Star Trek' as 'Satan Trek' and 'My Little Pony' as 'The Horse of the Devil'.
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I feel very angry at the moment, so when I calm down I'll edit this post and say something.
~ Elentari II |
Why is everyone so mad? I think it's funny. This guy claims that it's all evil, but to know that, he would/should have read the books, thus going against everything he's preaching.
Did anyone look over the site? Read the part about rock music. It's absolutly hilarious! Do you think it evre occured to him that without Christianity, Satan wouldn't exist? We wouldn't know about it, and therefor the rock musicians wouldn't have anything 'evil' to sing about. And like anyone's going to read this unsubstanciated nonsence and believe it, take his advice and throw out all LOTR/Harry Potter/rock music. I'm not against him being religious, just being a total philistine. I don't mean to offend anyone, but if you look back at the history of Christianity, the church did a world of damage that I can't really see these things doing. |
I am laughing. I see some points in the arguments, but mostly I think that this is extremist. His views are too one-sided to appeal to many people. And I have nothing against Christians at all, I am one myself.
Did anyone else notice his obsessive use of "occult"? |
Well, that one-sided rant has completely tured me. I have now burnt my LOTR and HP books!
Honestly, if he wanted to persuade people over to his side, he shouldve used a fair argument rather than a rant. He's just scaring peole away from God, the exact opposite of what he's trying to do. The guy needs to go back to English class. It also seems to me that he is saying that Christians are superior to all others, only they can be saved and go to heaven, blah blah. Not only is this racist, I despise elitism. Being a Hindu, I believe all people are equal, all can be saved, nobody is doomed just because theyre not of a particular religion. This person has, in my opinion, been brainwashed himself; probably by an extremist Christian group. Poor guy, does'nt know what he's rambling. A question. If God created humans, why would he want us to be like slaves? Wouldnt he prefer that we, created in His image, were also creative in our lives? Wouldnt he prefer us to be absolutely free, and write fantasy so as to be creative? Ah well, if Heaven and Hell exist, we know where this guys going. Racism, Thinking hes better than everybodyy else, Scaring people away from God, and of course making people start fires! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] |
God is the God of love. He really is. If you look at the human race it is amazing He hasn't killed us all yet! He gave us free will, to do whatever we want( even to embrace evil) because he loved us. f he hadn't done so and made us robots ( like how the Dwarves would have been if Iluvitar hadn't adopted them) God would not be called the God of love and mercy. I think that the reason we die is because the older ya get the more evil has entered your heart(Hence the Hurons, and the reason why God gave us a flood. Among other things). I think that this guy has been corrupted from what could have been a beautiful relationship with God and Christ by the doctrine of a legalist church. This web site is a site put up by an organization not just one person; at least that is what I think. There has always been a problem with strickt doctrine. Man made doctrine is a fars and yes there is a lot of it around. These people who follow this kind of doctrine think a lot of things:
First and most predominate you can't be saved unless you believe in the 7 twenty four hour days.( looking at the Silmiriloin I don't think that even Tolkien believed this. Personally I think God took his time. After all he was creating a work of quality) Second, you have to be baptized ( was the thief on the cross baptized). Or it must be in a certain way,(does it matter)sprinkling or emersion. Personally I have been baptized twice once in my back yard in a stalk tank.( ooooo I was not baptized in the church building itself what a sin.) Third if it mentions Wizard it is evil( well they should do research) and so on.... like you are sinning if you drink.(well Jesus drank wine, not grape juice. I have had people tell me that Jesus drank grape juice. They did not have a way to preserve grape juice other than to let it ferment back then. He was not a like Samson.) The list goes on. I am a Baptist and believe me even in my church there is a lot of stupid things that goes on in that church as well. My grandmother( who is a missionary wife) love the Lord of the Rings. She thinks that it is these small legalistic churches that believe like the puritans. This person, who wrote this one-sided paper, needs to sit down read his Bible, and research what he is writing about. (Maybe I should do that too) I did send him, or they an email with that other post( I have said this before) so maybe we can hear back from the people. And here I go again editing things. This is another point of]doctrinal contention in the church Also here are some scriptures to look up. I don’t feel like typing them all out: 1 Sam. 25:20-35 Gen. 34:16-20 Luke 7:38-50 Acts 28 :22 Romans 4:1-5 Deut. 9:4-6 Is. 57:12, 64:6, 65:5 Luke 11:42, 18:11-12, 11:39 Here is a defintion of magic from Nelson's Quick Reference Topical Bible Index. Magic, magiian-- the art of doing superhuman things by "supernatural" means. So I wonder does this apply to the Istari who are supernatural beings? You tell me. I think that this defends LOTR because I shows that it is superhuman things done by a human by the supernatural means. Not supernatural beings doing superhuman things and so forth.(confused yet?) Melyn, Annalaliath (If I have wondered off topic let me know.) I already did send them a link to this site. [ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ] [ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ] [ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ] [ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ] |
I totally agree with everything that Brinniel said. According to those who write such articles, we probably shouldn't drink herbal teas, cos they're wiches' potions. But I don't care about such people. I believe in the laws of nature, which are the laws of whoever or whatever created this universe, we call him God, I'm not exclusive as to who or what form God is, cos I wasn't made to know it. I respect other people's beliefs as long as they're not evil, ignorant and destructive. Magic, too, cannot be but handling, or so to speak, knowing teh use of the universal laws, which are not all known to us.
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Maybe we should just send him a link to this thread [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
I agree with guy who be short, in a way. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell, but I'm very slightly religious (Jewish) and I certainly don't believe that one person is better than another because of what they believe in. I think this dude is really discriminating against everybody who wasn’t poured out of the same mold as himself... ~Menelien |
Well I agree with most things said here so I won't repeat everyone except on a few things.
The one thing I find extremely odd is that he quotes Bible verses all over the place, and yet basically in a sense he goes onto blaspheme by giving himself the powers of God. Here are a few examples. 1)He claims to know whether or not someone is a Christian. This is so crazy because, the Bible states over and over that God is the only judge on the mattter. So why does he feel like he has the right to judge anyone but himself? 2)He says that you are an enemy of God. I believe that God only has one enemy, and his name is Satan. The Bible states that God loves all humans more then we could fathom. I think this is true so why could make us his enemy. He hates SIN not PEOPLE! 3)I dont know Gods feelings on lotr, but if God truly does not like lotr then I believe he would still forgive me for doing it. Just as he forgave the murderer, and the thief. So basically I feel that he has no right to condmemn others when he himself is sinning. Remember the story of the plank and the speck. [ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Trippo The Hippo ] |
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Oh blah, blah, blah. The man is obviously one of the sort of people who have existed throughout time, who burn witches and/or books for being heretical, who killed Galileo and Plato (if I'm not confusing myself, of course [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) etc. He can say what he wants but that is only ONE opinion. His problem is he wouldn't even accept that there are others.
I read a debate in a magazine in my church about whether HP was evil or not. The woman who argued he wasn't was so good that she (partly) swayed the "it's evil" man. The thing is, no-one could really say that it's SUPPORTING religion, it's just not mentioned at all. It's secular. As for LOTR, it also does not involve religion (if we're talking about specifically LOTR as opposed to the Sil, UT etc.) Tolkien never says there is religion- he never says there isn't. Is this guy saying that EVERY story has to have people praying and saying they are Christian? I assume he hasn't read it (seeing as he says we are all damned!)- so he's basically giving a report based on hearsay and speculation, presumably from people he doesn't even know. He wouldn't exactly be friends with LOTR freaks! A few non- LOTR related points why the guy is a nut:
Well, I got out the article about HP and my book A Closer look at the Lord of the Rings, Mark Eddy Smith (it's an amazing book about the Christian values in LOTR- It made me cry buckets) to make a blistering attack on his points, but seriously we know that the man is talking rubbish. We know he has no right to judge us. We know that our points of view are equally important to his. And if the man knew we existed he wouldn't defame himself by listening to our arguments! So what's the point? |
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~Menelien |
Wow. Someone from the site e-mailed me a link to this before I found this thread. I guess there could be some that are so infatuated with the stories that it could be considered idolatry. I mean I think that it's wrong to condemn everyone that reads it and even believes in it, but, if you go by Christian doctrine, there are limits. Correct me if I am wrong, as I am one-hundred percent pagan and only know a bit about Christianity (only what's actually in the Old and New Testament, as I read it).
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It is wrong when it becomes your god. Like drinking is wrong when it becomes your god, or another owrd for this is when you become addicted. Also I think that it may not be right for some people to read Harry potter. If you can't take the perspective that this is not real and become obbsessed to the point of loosing sight of what is real then there is a problem. I will take my vampire obsession that I had and am still dealing with today. I was loosing sight of all things good and beutifull, blood, to me, sounded like a snack. And I scared myself, when things got a little too deep. So that is all I have to say on that.
I think LOTR is a wholesome thing and this guy is just judgeing people out of his own elf ritousness(yes that can even become an idol). This self ritousness is denounced in the Bible a lot. If you look up those scriptures that I posted earlyer than you will find that some of them deal with it. This person is bent, they are twisted. I think that this has a lot to do with the buring of books that the Nazis did. When people burned Betles records because of what John Lennon said(he was not saying that he was better than Christ, just that in his time he was more popular than Christ 2000 years ago). Elvis albums because of hip, and the list goes on. I had an a principal of mine tell me that Pink Floyd was posessed! We all have to think for ourselves and serch for truth. After all God is truth. And in the end we are all on one gient spaceship and He is the only one who knows where it is going. |
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I think so...
Maybe the colors thing was just how the website works... I'm just really wondering whether he ever even read anything by JRRT? Just to look over the 'sinfulness'? ~Menelien |
I am half-tempted to send this guy a link to the Barrow-Downs. Come on, just having him around to bash would be fun...
And all that about Tolkien. Poor hellbound Roman Catholic! *laughs* (Obviously all Christians are not safe...) I should show this site to my Catholic boyfriend... Ooh, and apparently "ten short years ago", the occult wasn't an issue. How many people here have parents who read LotR? GaladrieloftheOlden: I was about to put up the verses of the plank/speck when I saw you already mentioned it. Meh. Here 'tis, for those who aren't familiar with it. Out of this same man's Bible, ironically. Matthew 7:1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." I think he needs to realise what a "Man of God" truly is before he can tell others that they aren't it. *sigh* It makes me weep to think about this. Just think- this guy may be someone's only Christian influence, and they'll either grow up just like him or rejecting Christianity completely. God, if you're reading this, please help him out. P.S. I was a Wiccan for a few years (and have a few Satanist friends), and I have found nothing to relate to that in either Harry Potter or LotR. [ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lindril Arvilya ] |
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