Now that would be scary.:eek:

As well as this, the seer also has a larger chance of finding the other baddies, and getting them lynched, so this also helps the lovers (as well as the rest of the village, obviously). It just makes it easier fir them.

Still reading this page...

Augghh!

My internet connection was severed and now I don't have time to complete my read, or even post. I may get back before DL, but I'm not sure that I will vote.

Vote well!

I'll vote now and be off to bed. My vote will be

++ Gollum

for reasons stated in my previous post. I ended up thinking that he's the most suspicious of my four orange zone people.
Good night m'dears.


EDIT: x-ed with Gollum - sorry to hear that. :( Unfortunately I won't change my vote because he can't defend himself, since neither could the others before I leave, which is approximately now. (Did anyone understand anything about that?)

There is a great deal of confidence implicit in silliness, Groin. I happen to agree with you that Mac seems innocent overall, but you're definitely pushing it a bit here.

Rikae seems to be playing up two identities here: that of the martyr, and that of the innocent. The first assumes the reality of the second (which is assuming a great deal), without explicitly stating either. Implied identities are significantly more dangerous than those that have been expressed, as they tend to escape analysis and can become axiomatic before they were ever theoretical.

Also, declining to answer another player's objections under the excuse that the issue has already been laid to rest looks to me like a sneaky way of suppressing suspicion.

I don't have any problem with Nogrod's use of the word "good" in this context. It is natural to understand the lovers' actions in terms of what is "good" for them.

I should be voting soonishly too.

The problem is that I'm still quite undecided. I want Gollum and Groin to have a chance to answer to me first but I don't know how likely it is that they turn up while I'm still online.

My other main options are Mac and Fea.

Well, I like meta-game discussion.

:p

It's not that easy folks...

I agree, and will take the assertion even one step farther: trying to analyze a player apart from the context of their past games is as futile as trying to appreciate an artist apart from his body of work.

Some off-the-top-of-my-head points:

1. My theory of lover-trios goes back to... um. There was a game (I think it was Brinniel's) with three Lovers; the Ranger Lover, the Ordo Lover, and the.... Wolf Lover? In any case, it was a baddie. I don't think trios are that far-fetched of an idea, and it would make more sense (six baddies makes more sense than four baddies, and their team wouldn't be immediately decimated with the death of one member.) Fea's reaction to this - or should I say, overreaction? - seemed kind of unnecessary; a case of "the Lover doth protest too much"?

2. There seems to be a relationship between Greenie and Mac today. They're both consistently bringing up the same points against Nogrod, which isn't eyebrow-raising, but Greenie puts just enough suspicion against Mac in her posts to make it seem as if she's distancing herself from him.

3. One of Sally's reasons for voting yesterday struck me as bizarre. She said she "didn't want to create a tie". Why? According to the rules, the first person to receive the number of votes, in the case of a tie, is the person who will be executed. Lommy still would have been executed at that point, no matter who you had voted, so why the insistence on not creating a tie?

I'm a bit pessimistic about analysing the deaths last night in any meaningful way right now.

If there are teams of lovers picking different kills, then there is competition to kill the opposing team first. They will try to hunt down their enemies, but how can they tell who's a lover? It would make sense for lovers to stay far away from each other during the day. Thus "Legate was winking at so-and-so!" is not going to persuade any villain that their enemies are carelessly revealing themselves. The interaction on Day One is just a blur of misinformation. Maybe the villains did choose their kills on a meta-basis. Lovers, Legate, Lalaith, Loving, Legate, Lovey, Lalaith.... maybe it was hypnotic. ;)

Anyway, our villains were wrong. Makes me wonder, on a meta-level...

Who could survive in a game like this, where villagers seek the famous romantics, focusing their efforts thither?

Not Legate, obviously! I could have told you that last week. He was never going to be a lover. Look what happened in the last game. :p

Too meta?

If we're going into meta...

It's clear, then, that Rikae and Mac are a pair, as well as Sally and Legate, and Fea and Phantom!

...Oh wait.... Legate's dead and Phantom's not playing. Funny, that. :Merisu:

Here's some meta for you...
 

Bad options, I assure you. Or at least bad option, singular.

Stop that. Really, no matter who you are you don't want me lynched. Cross my heart and promise. The wolves want me alive, the village wants me alive, and when it comes time for my death, you'd better believe that it's best for everybody if it's on my own terms. I'm blowing off my night class and going shopping. Don't kill me while I'm gone.

Nope, but there's a certain difference between saying that someone is weird because his way of playing is so different from usual and actually voting for someone because of trust problems caused by her being a wolf in the last game. ;)

Lommy's, which I helped to mod. But there the point was that no one knew that there were three of them, except the ordo lover. I don't think something like that would work here - with a gifted, ordo, and wolf.

This is actually a good point. It could be interpreted as a wolf trying to look helpful and normal and innocent and all. Then on the other hand it's also possible that sally's just so used to the idea of ties being bad that she kind of automatically thought "No ties" when voting.

edit: xed with Shasta & Fea

"Best for everybody"? Lovers included? So, what you're saying is, you're neutral?

Right, not necessarily a cross-alignment trio, but I remember that in that lover-trio, one of them died and the other two remained alive, but another died and they died together. Am I making sense? The mechanic could be the same.

I could be wrong, but haven't the last... three or four games had the same "first person to tie is executed" rule?

So, as I pointed out earlier, one of the things that caught my eye today was Kitanna's post. Let's have a look at reactions today, to the killings of Legate and Lalaith.

1) Rikae: Both classic wolf kills. No trails.

2) Brinniel: Lalaith, no trail. Legate, maybe he was a gifted.

3) Shasta: Legate, they thought he was a lover.

4) Eonwe: Lalaith, no trail there.

5) Aganzir: Legate? Probably thought he was a lover.

6) Sally: Legate? Hmm, I think they thought he was.... a lover!

7) Aganzir: lalaith could have been gifted, mind.

Then we have Kitanna, who pops up to say that o yes indeed, lalaith was an obvious kill given her "quietness" and that Legate was, like others thought, believed to have been a gifted.

I don't know what there is about this post but it just seems so throwaway, like Kit is merely going through the motions. Also, it's my time to betray her now. She's had it her way for too long. :p

String her up!

Possible but I don't know how likely it is. As for our game, the ordo lover was the most important - had she died, the others would have died too. She stayed alive as long as at least one of her lovers was alive.

Fea, your post made me feel more like voting for you than I did before.

edit: xed with Shasta & Eomer

Don't just look at the original point - I never claimed it to be a good one - look at Nogrod's reactions to it (and his reaction to my reaction...): those are what makes me suspicious.

Just to clarify: I don't think that arguments like "A plays differently than usual" are meta-reasoning - they're still concerned only with our in-game-personalities. In the case here, it reached out to out-game-personality ("Winning is not that important to me..."), and I don't think it's good to go there.

So... Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I'm confused. Are you and Kitanna lovers? And if so, why would you betray her? Doesn't seem very sportsmanlike.

I've come to the realisation that I don't really have any strong suspicions of anyone as of now. Time to take a closer look at everyone...I will be back..

Actually, yes. There's no way I'm staying up any later.

Kitanna always gets the last laugh. At least some of you should know that by now. Maybe it's because of that dodgy post earlier today; maybe it's just because she's a survivor; maybe it's because she has a history of slaying an entire village with her lover (who would that have been... :p ). All these are exceptionally valid reasons with little to no need of supportive evidence.

Hmm, now I'm the annoying guy who votes first and is exempt from talk of bandwagoning. :D

It's ok, Shasta. It's meta. :smokin:

Okay. It's like walking a trapeze.

I probably went a bit overboard back there and I do apologise, it was due to a weak judgement arising from...

Well, looking back to the first points made by Macalaure I might now see the reason: I was indeed a bit annoyed for the fact that he suspected me of being a very stupid wolf who has no idea how to play this game - or how he possibly tried to portray himself as a "sharp-shooter" trying to appeal to those who would not know a thing or two about people playing in this game by pushing things over any reasonable limits...

I said the kills during the Night were good. That means our baddies have sense and are no fools (at least one in each pair has sense). So he says "Ai! That term "good" was the first [!!!] that came to Wolf-Nog's mind! It appears like a Freudian slip!"

I say that it seems the killers of Lalaith have a different approach to the game than those killing Legate, which I think is an important point as there seemed to be some confusion about the setting of the game. But Mac says: "Gotchya! Thinking too much about the opposing wolf-side's tactics!"

Why I am weary about this with Mac? Had it been Xyzzy (sorry mate!), or anyone not actually reading the threads or actually played in these games before who was making those points, I would have just ignored them and only protested if there was an apparent bandwagon. But seeing Mac doing it I kind of... forgot my better judgement.

These arguments are here and they do exist whether we voice them out or not. There's no escaping them.


At the moment I'm only pondering whether Mac looks more suspicious to me than Greenie who neatly tried to exploit this whole row and then evasively voted for Gollum (who sure is an easy target at this moment)...

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts... actually from Gwath on.

Forgot to vote. :rolleyes: :D

++KITANNA

++ Fea

Sorry love, but I don't trust you. To my understanding you could make a post such as that regardless of your role, so it doesn't move me either way. Somehow it still provokes me, though.

edit: xed with Nog & Eomer

Groin: Has only made one post so far toDay, accusing Rikae of wolfish behaviour. His accusation seemed reasonable...but really, I want to hear more from him. He's only made five posts thus far and hasn't voted.

Aganzir: Has posted over twice as much as everyone else alive. Slow down, girl. ;) So far nothing about her has alarmed me. She doesn't feel manipulative as she usually does when guilty. And all the arguments and suspicions she has put out, particularly toDay, are well made. But then again, she's said so much that I hope I haven't missed something. I don't find her at all suspicious as of now, but I still don't want to disregard the possibility of her being a lover. Because we all know how good Aganzir is at playing evil.

Kitanna: Is also not around enough. She made a reasonable case against Rikae, but toDay we've barely heard from her. Like Groin, I really need to hear more before forming an opinion.

Gollum: Has typical newbie behaviour. Doesn't say very much and doesn't provide a well-rounded explanation for his suspicions. My guess is that this is more innocentish newbie behaviour...as a lover, I think his partner would advice him on how to contribute more and blend in so not to stand out. However, he remains yet another I want to hear more from.

To be continued...

Since I really am at a loss, i think I'll vote

++Nogrod

I don't really feel comfortable voting him, but I also feel like he i strying a bit too hard, if you get what I mean.

Forget meta, why not go for pure surrealism.
"Why does the cat change its socks at 5pm" Or if you're Legate-ish "Three cranes" or maybe even "6.565323048912 cranes".

I'll have to go back and answer everything I wanted to toMorrow.

If you don't feel comfortable voting him... why do it? I don't get why people say that.

I quite agree, Shastanis. If you're going to vote against your own better judgment, at the very least invent some kind of plausible justification, if only for the benefit of your fellow players.
:rolleyes:

Oh my, five hours to the wake-up call... :eek:

So maybe I should just try to annoy and upset you by suspecting all of you?


Suspicious

Kitanna defended Mac twice on Day1 when he was in trouble and hasn't made me feel any better toDay with her carefulness. Mac has clearly made his task toDay to get an innocent lynched... or at least make me suspected a lot.

To me it looks like a good deal trying out one of them.


I'm still a bit weary about Sally's way of posting.


Greenie took the most out of the little skirmish between me and Mac nicely portraying herself as an outsider (and making rreally bad interpretations of what people had said!) and then conveniently voted for Gollum as an easy choice.


Not going to vote...

Eomer looks reasonable even if I could see him playing it this safely as a baddie. I kind of suspect him indeed but have nothing to point my finger on.

Unlike Aganzir I'm not so worried about Fea this time. Although it depends on how she continues the game. Even if a case could be made that she tried to get through Day1 by being reasonable and has now fallen to her unfathomable ways to cover her lupine identity.

Rikae I'm somewhat easy about - but it may be because I have not concentrated on her too much so far. Still I wouldn't wish to lynch her as she is a formidable enemy of the baddies if she's a goodie.

Brinn looks good even if I know she can pull that face when a wolf. But like Rikae (and many others), she might be an asset in the endgame and I wouldn't like to see her go with no good reason.

Aganzir answered my few little teasers well enough and I will not be voting her even if I have a bad feeling about her everytime I play with her due to her mastery of being a sneaky wolf.


Alarmingly no idea eg. a host of baddies here!!!

Shasta - making points more than I'd expect. A good or a bad thing?
Gollum - trailing others too much to be a baddie? His lover would have consulted him?
Eönwë - lot of talk in numbers, little to say.
Gwath - his grounds for a vote yesterDay were terrible (voted Fea because he disagreed with her about Mac!) - I wonder why Agan was so keen on defending him??? But has been reasonable toDay, mainly because of agreeing with me... :rolleyes: and that I always find dubious.
Groin - is he playing?
McCaber - a real submarine


Okay. I'm not voting as yet. I try to wake up early enough to vote nearer the deadline if there would be any discussions or votes that would help me with my choice...

Good night!

PS. It's nice to see you Americans being forced to decide these votes for a change! :)

EDIT: X'd from Eönwë's vote...

Clearly my being busy from my first post today and now has made some suspect as a flying under the radar type (or that is how I see it). But I'm here now and will most likely be around until close to deadline.

I plan on taking a look at Eonwe and Eomer and Rikae as well to follow up my suspicions from yesterday.

I will start with Eonwe because on Day 1 he said something right before I left for the night that caught my attention:
Up until that point I hadn't noted Eonwe saying much against anyone, much less Rikae.

His first two posts were nothing more than commenting on how quiet things were at that point.His next post is just commentary on the rules in response to something sally had said. He then accuses Lommy of being jumpy after she accused Mac of being jumpy. Not much else to be gathered there.

First mention of Rikae. Doesn't really cast suspicion on her, seems like he's stating things matter of factly.

Poses the question if Agan is a bold wolf. Calls her phantom-ish in her playing style. In the same posts comments on something Mac said in regards to Rikae.

Still isn't really voicing his own suspicions of either.

Next post is the one that initially caught my eye. So up until that point in Eonwe's posting he hadn't really voiced any suspicions on anyone and it was only after Eomer and I cross voted that he came right out and said he had plans to vote for Rikae.

Yet he provides no reason as to why he would have voted Rikae in the first place. Unless I just haven't picked up on his subtleties the two posts he mentioned Rikae in before this didn't seem like he really suspected her.

His next few posts contain very little substance. They name no one and are generally responses to simple questions. His post #142 tallies the few votes up until that point. No mention of how he's feeling about Rikae.

No explanation he was so sure he'd vote for Rikae and then nothing, now he finds himself totally unsure. His next post is more lamenting of the same kind.

And he has a whole slew of votes with no content, just blather really. And then, out of seemingly no where, a vote for Legate. No explanation, no nothing. He states it randomly which is not really a big deal to me, but the fact he was so sure about Rikae worries me. For four posts he mentions Rikae, two stating things she said but not really doing anything with them, one where he comments on not being the first to vote for her, and one where he wants to give her more time. Then a random vote for Legate.

His first post from today highlights the deaths, speculating why Lalaith and Legate were killed, nothing sinister there. Next he provides a vote tally making sure to highlight those with confirmed roles, vote numbers, etc. Helpful, but no insight into what Eonwe is thinking.

And it looks like he voted for Nogrod today. I'm guessing he was under time constraints, but that's another random vote on his part.

What worries me about Eonwe is how much he talks, but how little he is saying. That's not even what bothers me the most, innocents are perfectly capable of lots of posts that don't help too much, but Eonwe rarely names anyone in his posts. I feel like he's trying to distance himself from everyone by randomly voting and casting absolutely no suspicions on anyone. I'm also interested in why he was ready to vote for Rikae, but backed off immediately? Was he looking for a safe vote, but when he acquired two he didn't want to find himself in a bandwagon?

Moving on to Eomer...
Appears suddenly and votes Rikae after stating: Alright. I'll taker this as a time issue.

Most of his first post today was about possible teams of werelovers given two dead in the night, nothing evil there. And then at the end of his post:
Indicating his vote was nothing more than stirring things up. In which case it would be useless to ask why Rikae because it could have been anyone. His other posts really didn't stand to accuse anyone though he commented on my first post of the day being little more than a conformity post. Which leads me to believe I shouldn't speak when under time constraints.

His next post attacks my post once more, showing me I'm better off not speaking.
Does my one post really have that big of an effect. And surprise, surprise Eomer voted for me. I'm actually confused as to why Eomer has attacked me in such a way. It's not even that he brings me to the village's attentions, I'm just confused he mentioned no one else. That doesn't seem like Eomer to me. But what do I know?

You can't be bitter about our victory as lovers in the wizards game can you Eomer?

Kitanna - it occurs to me that perhaps Eonwe thought I might be gifted. Thought I'd mention that since, if he does, he probably doesn't want to mention it himself.

Eomer's behavior is very strange, in that it looks like the old wolf-trap technique of casting a random vote and then turning on the person who follows it, except that the person in question, cross-voted.

Brinn is worrying me - I'm going to go back and look at something.

Oh yes, and Mac and Nogrod should knock off the "Itchy and Scratchy" routine already. :rolleyes:

Did it take you three hours to understand why you were annoyed, or to finally come up with a convincing backstory to your faked annoyance? ;)

Groin ~ is barely there, and what he said today I didn't like
Aganzir ~ innocent, I think
Kitanna ~ haven't paid very much attention to her, I admit, but what I've seen so far didn't alarm me
Gollum ~ completely escaped my attention (it's good I do these lists once a day - I'd forget about half the people...)
Nogrod ~ has been exceedingly strange today. I'm pondering whether it's enough to vote for him
Brinniel ~ not worried about
Sally ~ I have a bad feeling about her - I'll rethink it tomorrow, I think
Shasta ~ not worried either
Gwath ~ not really sure, but not alarmed right now either
Rikae ~ seems more innocent than guilty
McCaber ~ ???
Fea ~ not sure, but not really suspicious right now either
Lily ~ kept herself somewhere around the edges of my argument with Nogrod, suspects him but didn't vote him... worried
Eönwë ~ I think I need to have a closer look at tomorrow. Something's strange about him
Eomer ~ I still get a baddish vibe from him, but it's not enough to vote him today

I think I'll give Nogrod the benefit of doubt for today. Sally, Eonwe, and Eomer I'm suspicious of, but I need to really make my mind up first. The same holds for Lily. This only leaves Groin out of my suspects, but I'm not sure whether he's actually evil or whether he just doesn't have a grasp at this village yet and is hindered by little time.

Hmmm...


++Groin Redbeard

To my last suspect, Rikae. I'd like to follow up how I felt yesterday. As I said I felt uncomfortable with her Mac accusation. I could tell it was a joke, but the way she shamelessly put out herself as an innocent. So I'd like to look long and hard at Rikae to see if my uneasiness about her lessens or grows.

First post is the one that made my uncomfortable to begin with. No need to restate myself. Next post is a response to some things Mac had said.
Defends Mac with: Not highly suspicious given he original accusations were mostly made in jest.

Next she comments on Sally's questions. Says they are employed despite guilt or innocence, sort of in the same way Mac's jumpiness is used I guess. Doesn't really accuse sally.
Bolds something she found interesting with one of Agan's posts. Doesn't accuse here either.

Doesn't elaborate, but given the rest of her post she didn't to leave at that time.

Returns and comments that Eomer's vote was to stir the pot, but mine was nasty because it followed his immediately. Also comments about Agan's threat to vote for her as well. She doesn't mention Eonwe, though. He said he was going to vote for her for sure before Agan even mentioned possibly voting for Rikae. She also still finds Mac suspicious, but admits to not wanting to for him that day.

She votes for Agan. Don't see anything too suspicious with that vote.

First post of today doesn't strike me as much. Responds to Groin and alerts us to her presence.

Her most recent post brings up the idea perhaps Eomer thought her gifted. But also finds Eomer's behavior strange. Has mild suspicions towards Brinn, I expect something will follow later.

Rikae's first post still has me wondering.
However, nothing else she has said really worries me about her and one little jest post (no matter how sinister I feel it may be) is not enough for me to condemn someone as a baddy. For right now I feel better about Rikae, she seems sound and responsible.

Edit: I see Rikae went a looked back on Brinn and found whatever she was worried about was wrong. Also refers to Groin as too lazy to be a bad guy.

Quick correction:
Perhaps Eonwe thought I was gifted; Eomer is strange.

Oh sorry, the Eo names threw me off.