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I'll shorten my opinion (and don't let this go to your head) to "I agree with the phantom."
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phantom, I think you forgot to take into account that the EW can de-gift a gifted, and the GW can unwolf a wolf, so even with a tally saying, "Oh, you only have a seer and a hunter, and this many wolves" we still wouldn't know if the villager who died was the protector, a wolf, or just a hapless innocent. And the EW could allow for a wolf to die, for their own intentions. The only one who would know about being a gifted would be the GW, while the only one who would know about being a wolf is the EW.
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I'm ok either way it goes-- I'd prefer, obviously, to know the final role of the deceased...But not knowing/just getting a tally adds to the suspicion and suspense.
I think that the game is going to be (brilliant) chaos, and that we're going to need whatever shred of sanity we can get, be it a tally, or an actual role. And welcome to the fun, Eomer! :D |
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As far as wolves killing wolves, I'm discounting that because it doesn't seem too likely that the EW would be a fan of that. Let's look at a complex situation. If the GW de-wolves, the EW de-gifts, and the wolves kill an ordo all on one night, the number of Gifteds would decrease by one, Wolves would decrease by one, Wizards would stay at two, and Ordinaries would increase by one. The village could quickly deduce that only one kill was made. Only the wolves, the hunter, or a meeting of wizards can kill. If it was a meeting of wizards that killed, then how could the number of both gifteds and wolves be reduced? In order for the Hunter to kill, he must be killed, but that would result in two deaths. The village would quickly work out that the death must have resulted from the wolves, and that the loss of the wolf and the gifted was due to the Wizard's nightly activities, meaning that it was an ordo who was killed and not a gifted. As you can see, in most situations it is possible to figure out from the tally if a gifted was killed or de-gifted. Now, once there are multiple killings at night, then the situation is more complicated, because there is no way of knowing which of the three individuals killed was the gifted (though as always we will be able to tell if the reduction in the number of gifteds was due to the EW or the wolves, which is nice). And, of course, the GW can help clear up any confusion if he/she chooses by moving into the open. |
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tally so far....
..... at least I think my tired brain has this worked out right. Please, please, please, say "IN FAVOR" or "NOT IN FAVOR" so my bleary eyes don't have to read and re-read the complexities of your arguments to figure out what you think. This game's hard enough for even ME to keep track of. :p (but I love the way you guys are getting into it :D )
Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...? (you may change your votes of course) In favor: 5 SPM Celuien Roa Aoife the phantom Feanor Not in favor: 4 Lalaith Nogrod Diamond Eonwe Doesn't care: 1 Azaelia of Willowbottom |
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But in that situation, wouldn't the un-gifted come forward? He might as well. He is likely to be a pawn of the Wizards over the next couple of days, sure to be killed, re-gifted, cursed, or fought over in a wizard battle (or even if not, he will surely fear it, and the Wizards will consider it). And also, the GW could tell everyone what had happened. As I predicted earlier, I believe it is likely that the GW will reveal him/herself by the fourth day, partially to clear up situations such as this. If the number of Gifteds went down and nothing else, I personally would assume that the situation you described was what happened, unless someone told me different. And that's not even taking into account the possibility of, like you suggested, the uncursed Wolf coming forward. Of course, you are completely right that there is another possibility (or two) in this situation and that my in-game assumptions may be wrong, but generally the tally will give enough information to get by, and the times it doesn't- the situation can be quickly rectified by an uncursed or de-gifted coming forward, or even the GW himself. That's why I don't mind a tally only system. We are able to come up with certain situations that could lead to confusion, but they won't happen all the time, they can be resolved by others (especially the GW), and will only add a moderate amount of confusion, as opposed to if lmp didn't tell us anything and we weren't sure if we had all our gifteds and only two wolves, or if a gifted had just been killed during the night, another un-gifted, and another lynched during the day, and there were ten wolves running around. A tally is much better than nothing, I think. :p (But, as I said before, once the normal WW game starts we should follow the usual rules and reveal dying roles) |
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Anyone else having a difficult time waiting for this show to start? :) |
Me! But more because if it doesn't start soon, I fear that I might live past day one and end up with time constraint issues. Impatience is merely a second thought. No... strike that... I can't wait!
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By the way: NOT IN FAVOR. |
Familial announcement
Having procured Lhuna's consent (IM), I'd like to add another daughter to our passel. She will be the eldest daughter -- which makes Eonwe the son-in-law of Nogrod and I. I figured the only thing this village was missing so far was a mother-in-law. Mwah ha ha.
Er, I suppose I should ask Nogrod, do you mind the addition? No, of course you don't, my dear, so that's settled. Good, good. I shall annoy the young couple with pressure for grandchildren, and surely Eonwe will be looking to murder me the first chance he gets. :D Oh, and a clarification to the roles/not-roles matter. I suppose it doesn't matter to me so much if an individual person's role upon death is revealed, as much as having the Day and Night tallies of how may wolves there are and how many gifteds of what kind there are. It's less important to know who so-and-so was at the moment of their death as knowing what the overall situation is. So I'm: SORT OF IN FAVOR OR NOT IN FAVOR DEPENDING ON HOW EXACTLY THINGS ARE DONE. :p |
I'm in.
I'm supporting selerinya.
++NOT IN FAVOUR |
I'd prefer to know the role of the killed one, but not the previous roles. That'd cause enough but not too much confusion.
A question to LMP: The rules say that the EW can lie to his/her "subjects". What about the GW? |
My problem with not knowing roles at time of death, is that it makes it harder for non-Wizard players to participate in the game in a meaningful way.
Non-Wizard players are of course going to be wizarding pawns to some extent, as the wizards have more knowledge and power than the rest of us. The shifting roles of players, the lack of any group behaviour by the wolves, is going to make it hard to make choices, votes etc that are anything but random, and having no identity clues at all after death is going to make that even harder. Oh and I have another question. If the good wizard already has a full quota of gifteds, s/he could presumably still scry a player at Night, in order to lift a potential werewolf curse. But if the scried player turns out not to be a werewolf, what happens then? Nothing? |
My suggestion that we not know the roles of those who have died was just that, a suggestion, born of the dynamics that I enjoyed in Diamond's game. I had not really thought through the consequences in detail, as has been done (mainly by TP and Roa) since. Ultimately, I am happy either way, but my vote will remain in favour. I like paranoia and confusion. :cool:
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But these relationships are getting confusing. Any chance of a relationship chart, like a family tree? Perhaps Hookbill's artistic talents could be drawn on ... |
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I wouldn't worry about this too much. I don't think it will happen often, if at all...unless the werewolves are suffering a rout. |
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Well, phantom, as my father would say, we seem to be in violent agreement. (I end up in that alot....) We seem to agree that knowing tallies is enough information to play with while still being mildly ambiguous so as to require some level of thought. I imagine we can have even more fun discussing this on Day 1.
And I'm more than ready for this game to start. :D |
I'm with Azaelia on this one.
Though I'm not sure what she's saying. But I totally agree. |
*sigh* Always a bridesmaid, never a bride.
Come on, does no one want me :( ? Am I really that scary? I won't bite.....hard :D |
I'd marry you Naria! But I'm not sure that's quite canon, plus Glirdy might attack you.
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Awww, thanks Kath! I feel a little more loved now :eek: :D !
Glirdy, Shmerdy.....Ha ha I can take him on anyday! |
Oooo!! I get to attack Naria!? Interesting!! She's mine I tell you! Mine!! :p Idea! Naria, why don't you be a child and we (you and I) compete for Kath?
Oh by the way, not in favor. |
Whatever The Phantom says, that's what I agree with.
And I need some sort of relationship. Hmm, can I be an old flame of Lhuna's? :D Possibly someone's brother or wayward cousin. I would also like some sort of unlikeable profession. Perhaps a snake-oil merchant would do the trick. |
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current tally: Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...? (you may change your votes of course) In favor: 6 SPM Celuien Roa Aoife the phantom Feanor Eomer Not in favor: 8 Lalaith Nogrod Diamond Eonwe Lhunardawen Nilpaurion Thinlomien Glirdan Doesn't care: 3 Azaelia of Willowbottom Diamond Cailín 17 votes in, 14 not yet in. Yes, that makes 31. That's because I'm counting our 2 maybes and 2 sub-mods. Okay, I'm going to make a decision in the next few days as to who our two wizards are. We have 27 players, and that's really enough. I'll take up to 30 if you volunteer by the time we begin play. We will begin Night Phase One on Wednesday at 6 pm EDT (10 GMT). |
Well, after much consideration, I find myself totally ambivalent as concerns the tallies/final role issue. I can see the game being interesting either way. So put my ballot in the "Doesn't Care" pile.
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Hello there. I'm new to the forums, and was told to check out the Werewolf games. Sign me up.
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Hello Loki. You picked one hell of a game to start with. Good luck. You need an age group and a profession. This is where the rules for this particular game are listed. Enjoy!
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Lets just get all of the family together! So welcome Lhuna, my eldest daughter, and my pride! And Eonwe, rest assured of my suspicions from the dAy1 onwards! My daughters are not on sale to any werecreatures!
And as lmp has not voiced any rules concerninig the families, well... |
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However, I did write up this handy little guide, because I was bored: Nogrod + Diamond - Lhuna (+ Eonwe) - Firefoot - Azaelia Sleepy + Roa - Caran - Glirdan - Lommy Alcarillo + Cailín Lalaith - Oddwen, niece SpM + Celuien (& JennyHallu, Celuien's sister) Eonwe + Lhuna Nilp + Spawn Unattached and parentless so far: Kath Valier Naria Kitanna Gurthang Fea Eomer (wants to be someone's brother or cousin and an old flame of Lhuna's) Just plain unattached: Mormegil the phantom Loki -- Noggie and I will welcome more kids if anyone wants. |
Age Group: Middle-aged (fourty-eight).
Marital Satus: Never married. Profession: Weary Leech-Collector for local doctors. |
I'm Celuien's sister, Di, not Lal's
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C'mon people. Just two real families! Are you trying to be individualistic in here? Now just marry each other and go for the kids!
Otherwise we family-folks will just out-vote you individuals on dAY1... Sorry! Think of your own best now! And sure Quote:
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Actually, the image of our driving away suitors to our eligible maidens with one of his saucepans amuses me to no end, so I'll be quite disappointed if we end up childless. :D Any volunteers? |
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I'm a leech-collector. There's a damned good reason as to why I'm single.
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