No, I was in fact refering to the assumption that he's an orc. Since he can make that assumption, he can logically draw the conclusion that Sally, Mira, and I voted for an orc. No one else can make that assumption, so the fact that the rest of the village doesn't accept his logic does not mean that it is not logical.

1. That promise was made after I voted.

2. Well, it's pretty obvious that a representative isn't likely to vote for the people they represent. It's sort of counter-productive for those who want to remain in power rather than being mistrusted by the voters for the rest of the game, isn't it?

EDIT: xed with The Puddingtom

Not true. Folwren had several pages of discussion to read through and form opinions before she voted, I believe, information that Lottie and Sally certainly did not have when they voted.

No, but the logic doesn't go very far, does it?

I know, but you specifically mentioned that it didn't bother you– that's what I was asking about not, "why did you vote him?"

Yes, but isn't promising not to vote the people one represents counter-productive for those who want to hunt wolves– er, I mean, Elves?

True, I won't be voting Greenie or Legate just for a default–lynch. But if either of them starts looking distinctly Elvish, that's a different matter.

Your response has nothing to do with my statement. I did not say L & S had the same number of posts to read over when they voted, but rather that they knew the same exact amount when they voted. Actual knowledge. Something you can bank on. Reading through five pages of "I don't like those early votes!" and "I don't like Phantom!" and "You're wrong!" and "Let's not split votes!" does not qualify as gaining actual real knowledge. You can try and form a hunch based upon such things, but that is all.

Meh- I want to say something to you, but I really shouldn't. Just... read everything I've said today, and consider it from all angles and think what sorts of things an orc-Phantom would want to accomplish and how things I have done might fit in line with those goals. Let me know if it falls into place.

All right, extremely tired. *yawn* I'll be around most of tomorrow.

Okay, so it's done for the first Day - the Reps have been chosen. Now I am really, really curious as to what they are going to do with their newly acquired power. Speaking of that, I think it would be very nice if the Reps wrote, if only in a few words, whether they have some basic ideas on whom they would vote and so on (if they do), just so that we, the common folk, are not entirely left out of the game of the mighty. That said, in any case, I would like to urge the "common folk" to continue participating as much as we can, even continue toDay as if it was a normal Day and we ourselves were supposed to vote - I think that way, the extended 48-hour Day's full potential can be used.

Just a few notes to the ongoing phantom debate. I think I am beginning to partially see phantom's point of view, at least to a certain extent - at least, I know it is true that he considers Day 1s just random rubbish, and I can see the inner logic in what he says. Of course, he would behave like this whether he is innocent or not (and I disagree with him on several matters - like the argument with the probability of electing an innocent randomly; statistics, in my experience never work). The more I am actually interested in how he plans to use his votes, of which he now has several. And, that said, I am not really so keen on lynching him already on Day 1 just because he is the phantom. Unless he manages to lynch our Seer or something like that, which is not very probable, he won't be that dangerous even in his position. I mean, I there's been a bit of unnecessary demonisation of him. Let us just look at him as at one of our Reps, and judge him based on his actions.

I have to go now, but will hopefully pop in during the Day in several hours and then I will be back late in the evening (also metaphorically, time-wise: close to the DL). But meanwhile, keep it up, ye who be around...

Just letting you guys know that I am around, but it will probably take me a very long time to look through todays posts and comment on them.

They placed their votes, with what I believe to be no thought of your possible alignment or the outcome. You could of been outed as an Elf, who knows.

How is my vote better than theirs? I actually gave it thought, and used it to try and counter what they started in motion.

[quote]I have always been quick to defend people against arguments I consider to be flawed. Nerworc's arguments against tp were, in my opinion, flawed./quote]

I believe you responded to Nerwen of how could she distrust Phantom on banter. Well.. how could you trust him on banter?

It seems to me that you are defending him based nothing on what you think of his alignment. But because Nerwen's arguments against him, in your opinion were flawed.

Also. Sally's argument for phantom was flawed. That he as an Elf would not try to get rid of the Seer on the First Day. Who do you defend there, when you of course agreed with it. ;)

I'm glad Shasta has taken up me and Greenie's crusade against phantom's silly arguments so I don't need to concentrate on it any longer, haha. I'm really puzzled though - is phantom 1) really seriously arguing about these things, 2) just too proud to admit he's been wrong and thus keeps coming up with rather weird arguments after each other or 3) trying to test people? I would think number 3 is the most probable option and number 2 the least probable one. I wonder what he's trying to achieve by that, though - only some kind of half of the village united against phantom situation, which is kind of weird. (This is to say, hint hint, phantom, stop arguing unless you really think your points are worth bringing up. :p)

Well if it comforts you, my attitude towards him in ww hasn't changed a bit since I met him. ;)

Well yes, but we don't want to have reps who are unable to co-operate, either.

Then to the rep choices... I kind of like them, but I have a feeling there's at least one if not two SoE among them simply because so many people I think innocent are NOT among the reps. I'm not too happy about phantom and me having more power than the others, but it's better that there's the two of us. And now I feel responsible...

*is amused*

Seconded.

!!! Brilliant. You know, though, when I met him in person I quite carelessly referred to him thinking about complicated schemes in his small head and that probably the worst offense anyone ever said to him. :D Poor phantom!

What? What about hanging around and telling us who you suspect and helping the reps making their choices?

That is not a valid argument unless you can prove you're an orc.

I would rather not attempt lynching tp toDay (unless there is stuff to point at his guilt) because it would further make the whole Day concentrate on him because he has a substantial amount of the total votes and he has made it quite clear he is going to use them to protect himself, which will potentially just cause damage in the form of making a random and ill-advised lynch.


PS. Does somebody else find reading tp's and Legate's signatures after each other highly amusing? *snicker*

Maybe he means he can't be around? :confused:

*shrugs* If the SoE haven't managed to get one of their own elected, I don't think we have much to fear from them.

Well that's what I kind of assumed too but why to announce it so happily...? :confused:

A few comments.
 

That might be what I am saying. . . You are a smart orc, you figure it out!

I am just a product of certain historical events and if you want to judge me by your own, quite possibly flawed, moral code then go ahead.

I know!

I love it my self, I seldom make as much sense as in that particular post. Of course this is because I did not write that post. . . You are infact basing your opinion of me on something Folwren said.

I support this. I always get very confused by those two names.

I disagree, I find that they knew a bunch of stuff and that the knowledge was quite real. It is fine if your attitude to the voting process is that everything goes, but then I think you should stick with it through out the game.

A Thought
 

This general idea that it is ideal with a lot of representatives with limited power is not one I can support, especially not the whole idea about implementing a system of voting. (Such as suggested by Nogrod and Wilwa)

In my humble opinion it is downright silly to make a "rule" that say only two votes per representative. You should vote for the person you find fit for the job and not some half-random person whos only merits is that they don't have two votes yet. . Not only does it provide excellent cover for SoE, but more importantly it is no fun.

I want political intrigue, I want representatives who abuse power and then get brutally punished come next election time. . . or more realistic, gets re-elected.

In my ideal world we would have one person with something like 49% of the votes, so that the rest of the representatives where forced to work together in order to get any influence. Then we would have dynamic system, with lots of negotiating and stuff to analyse. . .

Of course this is only in my ideal world, in our real orc world it would probably just mean that the strongest representative would get their way and the rest would be quiet.

Still I think it would be good for our system if we vote due to our believes and not "because Nogrod told me to do so" (Nogrod is just an example)

*is in hysterics*:D

(Btw, O King of Scavengers, I forgot to say this in the first part of the Day, but I of course love you to bits too.:Merisu:)

EDIT:X'd with Rune.

No, I don't think we need a rule like that. But I did want multiple reps toDay, and no-one having absolute power– because as I said, that way the lynch most likely ends up telling us nothing.

EDIT:typo

So let's talk about people (other than phantom).

Rune, got any suspicions? Or thoughts, anyway?

Just talked with Greenie on the phone. Apparently her internet died so that totally mucked up her participation plans and now she is heading to her start of term party so it's a bit unclear how she can participate. She might come to my place at night to read and vote quickly, or just call me (or Agan if you don't trust my impartiality ;)) to send her vote to Fea and Nienna if they accept it.

Well, I do have a few thoughts.

I have been very surprised with the passion that Boro attacked Sally and Lottie's votes for the Phantom. He clearly put a lot of effort into the trash talking of these people. I am not totally unsympathetic to the points he made, but I don't think I have ever seen Boro act in that manner on a Day1. Just like Lommy he seems to have undergone some sort of change, only Lommy's change seems more natural to me.

It has to be said that I haven't played these games for a while, so am judging them on old memories.

After reading through the thread I have grown increasingly fond of Folwren, she seems be very to the point and actually makes a reasonable ammount of sense. I am not sure I agree with her thoughts about which kind of people who runs for representative #73, but that is the only thing I object to.

Legate and Nogrod seems very much like them selves. Nogrod is less active and haven't been fighting as much with me as usual, but that is surely due to his failing internet connection.

If I had been a representative I would probably end up voting for either Glirdan or Greenie or maybe Steve.
Glirdan seems to react to small things and I generally cannot figure him out.
Greenie and Steve would mostly be due to the way they have posted rather than actual wolfish speach. Greenie started out with a bunch of small comments to what people had said and then made a small list. . . I guess it is quite al right for a day1, but it just seemed like she was trying not to commit her self too much. I got much the same feeling from Steve, but as I said it is not something very concrete.

In a bit hurry right now (the pub is getting overcrowded with ice hockey supporters as the season begins today). I'll come back here later for some points I'm hopefully able to make then.

But I have read the stuff for now and must say I am pleased with us having seven representatives for D1. And to make it clear in the face of some points raised lately: I don't think we should have a "rule" that we should have the maximum number of representatives every Day. That would be a stupid rule indeed. We need to be flexible with the reps, but in the beginning I really think "the more the merrier".

Also I back the idea that we non-representatives should try to give all we can to the process. Let's help our representatives as much as we can - and treat people who shy away from helping as possible traitors trying to lay low purposefully.


I don't like doing this now - all this talk about tp - but it seems I have to...

So phantom, I do admire your energy and plotting, but tell us one thing. Well two things.

Why did you defend Sally & Lottie as ones who made a bright and intentional move in the beginning (which intention of theirs you explained to us in quite a detail instead of letting them tell us why they voted for you) but have now lapsed back into just talking about statistics?

Why did you first talk of their votes for you as something you triggered as a part of your masterplan but after being pointed out about the time-flaw (especially concerning Sally), have stayed quiet about it?


I'll try to come up with a list of people as to what I think about everyone later - and hopefully being also able to comment on the lively discussion that will happen while I'm away.

But I can say right now that you reps should have very strong reasons if you would lynch Shasta. It's not the fact that he argues against tp (tp might be innocent anyway), but it's the way he does it. I'd be almost as assured of Foley's innocence, but not just that much.

Boro is odd and Legate's posting makes me nervous.

Let's see if another read changes things, but these are the top of my impressions right now after quickly reading the stuff - and trying in vain to concentrate in an overcrowded and noisy pub...

EDIT: x'd with Lommy & Rune

I'm here, in class right now so I'll be trying to read and catch up while also taking notes, but there should be a response from me very soon.

This is acceptable. Just remember as you normally would to maintain role secrecy.

I will be leaving now, I probably won't be back until very late and then only for short amount of time.

We'll miss you, Runeorc. :(

Announcement
 

The phantom will henceforth be known as phorc.

Well, I'm not displeased with the reps we have. I do think it's better to have several reps with a fairly even amount of power over one or two with a large number of votes.

Heh. That's pretty good.

That's the way I see the Sally and Lottie votes too. I don't know whether tp is a SoE, but I flat-out disagree with him on this. And it feels likely that there's a SoE among the three of them.

I've been having a hard time with that too. Why make things more confusing than necessary?

I don't want the non-reps to just switch off in the latter half of the Day either. For that reason, I don't like Boro's saying he was pretty much done with toDay.

I think it's likely SoE's managed to get at least one of themselves elected. Why wouldn't they? But having a larger number of voting reps gives us more to work with toMorrow.

Vexing as tp is, I don't think he should be the sole focus for the rest of toDay, and I don't know I'd vote for his lynch. But I probably would go for him, Sally, or Lottie.

Hey, was the site down for anyone else?

So class was a bit more interactive than usual, and I therefore couldn't really go my computer, and then my lunch brake kind of got stolen from me, now I have another class and my laptop is dying and people have already claimed all the outlits. So you won't be hearing anything from me for a couple more hours. Sorry, just bad luck today for computer time (I usually have so much!).

The way phantom keeps changing his mind about what his "ploy" was supposed to accomplish (sorry, don't have time to quote now) is quite eyebrow-raising, but unless he does something impossibly Elfish, he's pretty safe from the lynch toDay (with his three votes). And Lottie is puzzling me quite a lot. But then, in the opposite corner, there is also Boro– it's true he's being strange too, though I'd want to see more of him.

Oh, and Mirandir. Her vote was weird.

Back later.

EDIT:Added comment.

Nope. You said I needed vacation right? So, I'm going to take it. I can't vote and I'm not going to lobby for anyone's death. My standard approach when I do have a vote on Day 1, it is to try and not do anything catastrophically stupid. I read all the posts, figure out a few of the people who look good and trustworthy, but not so much who looks bad. Thus, with no information other than what people decide to say openly, my Day 1 votes become based on who I don't want to see lynched at that point and not so much a vote on who I think is definitely evil.

For this is something that phantom is right about, when it comes to sally, Lottie, and Mira's votes for him. Anyone who looks like they know too much either really does know too much or is faking it for some reason. I don't see much benefit to an SoE looking like they know too much, because it is that very act which usually gets them in trouble. Thus, some one faking they know too much is probably an ordo trying to paint a target on their backs so the SoEs kill them and not the seer, or they really do know too much and it's good chance that person is evil.

Beyond that, I won't be able to add much, sorry. I mean I could say a bunch of random comments like "phantom is up to something," but saying phantom is up to something, is like saying I will drink anything...like really...anything. This thread is already going to get epically long, I care not to clog it up more with captain obvious statements. You know who I feel pretty decent about, and who I don't. I'm not going to lobby for anyone's lynching when I aint got a clue.

Now if I understand Shasta, Nerwen, and Foley's objection to those who voted phantom as a rep, instead of feigning information, it looks like they are feigning ignorance and are hiding behind random votes to look innocent. Eh, as silly as it is, I don't think there's evil intent there. I've already shared my opinion on those three votes, and one thing I will not stand for is to be mis-represented *glares at Rune*

I did not attack either of their votes. I said their votes actually looked innocent.

With regards to Mira, it's funny, because Foley said something about how it looks like she hasn't been paying attention, but Mira said that exact thing in her posts. Mira has no method to her decisions beyond "I like what you're saying, you've got my support. I don't like what you're saying, I'm going to kill you." It makes her a formidable wear-bear because it's nearly untrackable. But ultimately a poor wolf strategy, because you need to work with others and come up with some plan of attack. Trust me, you'd be able to tell if Mira was evil, because even if she would still have no method, her excitement at being evil is simply uncontainable. You would literally be able to read it straight out of her posts.

My disappointment was more to say "Really, Mira? That's all it takes to get bribed? Psh...easy. You should get lynched for that and I won't take the noose for you this time."

Like I said, you're always doing something, but I can't read your mind here. I can see what you're doing, I just don't know whom for yet. You know I will drink with ye, but I carry a blade and never turn my back for a reason. I trust nothing here except my own eyes and ears. I look out for myself, and make sure the good businesses here stay in business, that's it. I care not what happened centuries ago, and I care not to partake in any of it. I these no-good-uppity Elves think they can come in here and start a fight because they can't let go of a grudge, I say bring it. But if anyone is going to insist we deserve what the SoE's are coming here to do because of something that happened centuries ago, or insist I would have partaken in it, is no lad of mine.

Edit: crossed with Wilwa and Nerwen

*likes*

It's true. Also dear, you're contradicting yourself. You just said I'm not evil, but deserve to be lynched. Why advocate lynching someone who you said yourself isn't evil?

As eye-roll-inducing as Mira's vote was, it was probably too reckless to be something a Mirandelf would do.

But I have no clue about the alignment of my rep either (Cel). And you don't know what your rep's alignment is. And when it comes to hunches, we have zero kills and lynches to help us decide and haven't reached a stopping point (night) where we can go back and reread the day's action.

Can you people please grasp this? The difference on Day 1 of rep-voting between voting first and voting last is extremely minimal! Now, if you're a SoE and you've been hatching plans for various ways to influence the rep voting I'm sure it makes you downright livid when some misbehaving orc votes before you've had the chance to work your charms on them. Well sorry, but that's just tough luck for you.
Oh come on, you walked straight into a point I made earlier- the fact that other votes have merely been, as you stated, a reaction or counter to the first votes! Basically, you're basing your actions upon something that you say shouldn't have happened in the first place, which means that had everyone followed your advice and not jumped the gun, you wouldn't have had any reason to vote later yourself, thus proving me correct when it comes to how incredibly flimsy our day 1 rep voting is going to be.

I mean, seriously- all of you people are taking these Day 1 rep votes way too seriously at this stage. Last time we did this it was more like, "Hey, so and so never says anything. I think I'll force them to show up and vote by making them a rep on this first day." You people are just way too anxious to grasp at things.

Rune- happy to see someone else who is skeptical of old Boro. We need to be watching him.
Regarding the first paragraph, I tried to focus more on the actual outcome of the vote (did they vote an orc?) after I saw that no one was grasping the idea about Sally and Lottie actually being quite useful in kick-starting things and shaking and moving and spurring everyone on.

Making that sort of argument actually makes it look like I'm calling the votes overall good, but obviously everyone was too stuck in their thinking to stomach that, so I figured I was asking for a bit much and started concentrating more on showing why their votes were not bad. I mistakenly thought that it would be easier for people to see that point.

And how exactly did I not trigger Lottie? I did. Sally on the other hand- she did what falls into my first argument quite well. She jumped in and immediately fired a shot. So well done.

Or are you referencing where I stated, "I got the vote train rolling". I wasn't implying that I had somehow posted before Sally's vote, but rather I had in mind the simple fact that I was the one openly asking for votes plus I had received the first two votes. Isn't that enough to be able to claim that I got the train rolling?
I'm not changing it, dearie, it just had many layers to it, some of which have yet to be revealed.

You can't simply disregard what can be gained by reading the things that people say, either. I simply do not understand why you're doing so, and saying that we should do the same.

Legate's #206 makes me uneasy - it's a relatively large post that says nothing but the obvious, as if he's participating but not really.

Pish. "Taken up"? I believe I started the whole thing, thank you very much. :p

...
...
...
Whoops. I feel like a lamebrain now, for sure.

Edit: X'ed with phorc.

There's a difference between choosing not to oppose something, and advocating for it. Even if it was Day 1, you were bribed by phantom far too easily. Show a little more care with your votes, which would be deserving that I risk my neck for you, and you know I will. Until then, I've said my thoughts on your alignment, the Reps can listen or not, either way doesn't matter to me. You haven't done anything to show you'd be a terrible loss even if I think you're innocent.

Now you're chainsawing, Phantom. Come on. You can do better than that. Trying to lash back against those who find you suspicious by calling them suspicious (which is what you're doing) is a baddie hallmark.

Last I checked, this game was about catching Elves, not 'proving Phantom right'. Whether or not you are correct about whether or not Day 1 voting is flimsy is highly irrelevant. The point here is that Izzy gave her vote some thought, whereas Sally and Lottie did not (although given Lottie's defense of her vote, which I'm going to go back and read again, I may change my opinion on her).

Edit: X'ed with Bororc.

Boro, explanation accepted. :p
Phantom, I should probably ignore your posts henceforth because otherwise I will just start writing counter-argument novels.

Not too worried about atm
Boro
Foley
Greenie
Legate
Nog
Rune
Stëonwë

Slightly worried about atm
Celuien
Glirdy
Izzy
Kath
Lottie
Mira
Nerwen
Phantom
Shasta
Wilwa
Zil

Mostly the people on the first list are people I feel good about, the rest are lumped to list 2. I'm really rather lost about the SoE's identities, if I had to make a shot in the dark I'd say Sally, Celuien, Glirdy and Wilwa but I really have no idea at all, especially the two last names on the list are total randomness. I still think not all tp voters are innocent, and after a bit of thinking I think the most probable option for a nasty elf is Sally (Lottie has defended her actions as if she really was doing the right thing and Mira was too careless to be a wolf). Celuien I just have a random bad feeling about, and the same goes to lesser extent for Glirdy and to even lesser extent for Wilwa.


edit: xed with Shastax2 and Boro

I endorse this comment completely - it's exactly what I was thinking.

I'd say that Mirandir's vote was more annoying than suspicious, really. If she had indeed read next to nothing and paid next to no attention to what was going on, then little wonder she voted for Phantom. Chances are, she was acting flippantly, like most people do on day one, and was running with Phantom's joke. If it had not been for the fact that the discussion about Phantom's voters had been going on all day, her vote would have been perfectly acceptable as a first day sort of jokingness. I don't think Mirandir is worthy of lynching.

And after spending a considerable amount of time reading lots of posts, I have nothing further to say and no more time to say it in. We've practically beaten the Sally-and-Lottie-baseless-votes-for-phantom issue to death, so I'll leave it be.

I'm off. And may not be back on much at all before deadline.

X-posted with Lommy and Shasta.

Isn't this the same as the 'two votes per Rep' suggestion? Trying to make a rule in terms of how you vote for your Representative? Because you would need to have one, for a single person to get that much sway. I don't like this idea, because it in no way forces that player with that much power, to work for the better good. Their only consequence would be what? Lynched the next Day for acting poorly with votes? But that would be further detriment to the Cave.

I do agree, that we should all be voting for who we think would do a good job; but who we think is an Orc first. Because an Elf could do a splendid job, but that is counterproductive.

I never claimed that I knew for certain the alignment of who I voted for. However, I did give it thought - which is a difference between the votes. If people were unable to get information from other players in regards to their alignment, then what exactly is the point of having a Day phase? Hmm? You seem to think that information relies solely on what occurs during Night. Which is ridiculously .. flawed and lazy. Your entire stance is rather odd, and it definitely shows you are up to something - but when aren't you. It also seems like you are faking here, and I question how it is productive and good for the Cave.

I said my vote in particular. I didn't vote solely on the thought of trying to counter what you and your lackeys tried doing. I also thought of alignment, and who I thought was a possible Orc. Again, a rather large difference.


I think the phorc/Loslote/Sally triangle needs to be figured out at one point or another, otherwise it will continue to vie for attention.


Currently wouldn't vote for:
Folwren
Lommy
Nog
Shasta
Wilwa
Dun
Mira

Every one else is pretty iffy, or no read. I have Mira up there because I think she was in a 'no time, must vote' state of mind.