Are the Drakes of Fire and Iron that Melko used agaist Gondolin counted at all?

If not, certianly the Balrogs.

A Balrog has wings too. They would not have been given them if they were unable to use them (Morgoth is too cunning for that), however, because the records do not show that they were used on a large scale they may have been used only when needed.

[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: Wolf Larson ]

I'm probably going to regret this...

Since you cannot recall any instances where they did (and there are not any, I assure you) you really cannot say that they can probably fly. It is a case of having a distinct lack of evidence.

[ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

This is ridiculous. Balrogs are Anuir, and Dragons are mortal creations of Morgoth. If that's not clear enough, Miar don't really die. They are either banished of return to Valinor. No such thing happened to Smaug. Also, the dragons would be incapable of battling the Balrogs, as they were lesser servants of Morgoth. I use the term "lesser" rather loosely, but the Balrog could simply order a dragon about. A direct confronation seems rather unlikely. Lastly, what kind of Dragon? A Cold-Drake might have a better chance if, say, they were pitted against each other. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I don't think that a balrog could have ordered a dragon. Sauron, who was the mightiest of Melkor's servants, never tried it, which I think means he couldn't, or that it would have been very hard for him. If Sauron couldn't how could a balrog? Of course when Morgoth was still in Middle-Earth a balrog could have done that as Morgoth's lieteutenant, but not after the War of Wrath.

Besides, the balrogs never leave their bodies, or at least it isn't mentioned. I think this means they were sort of incarnated, like the istari, and therefore can be killed. I'm pretty much sure the fall from Zirak-Zigil was Durin's bane's last fall.

Yes, but Sauron might not have been aware of the existance of surviving Dragons. At the time of Smaug and Bilbo, has was in the middle of a battle with Gandalf at Dol Guldur (correct my spelling), and didn't have the Ring, making him unable to give orders, period. And the Istari can be killed, but Gandalf was sent back to ME, and Saruman was banished.

I am very sure he was aware of them, thats why Gandalf wanted to get rid of Smaug cause he was afraid that Sauron mya use him in any futur battles

As I'm sure you noted above, there is some dissension over that particular issue.

Prove it.

Again, as noted above there, is some dissension over which was "lesser."

As for Balrogs ordering Dragons about, we have examples of both.

Balrogs were in Glaurung's train (meaning they were assigned to follow and obey him.)

Obviously Gothmog commanded Dragons at the Fall of Gondolin.

So, we have examples of both.

I believe that the direction of the discussion tended toward the Great Dragons, and not those of lesser brood.

You are correct.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Dragons all the way!

But i do think it matters which Dragon and which Balrog.

I Have to go with Balrogs. They are the closest thing LoTR has to Demons, so I think they could eventually take down a dragon.

Balrogs were the personal servicemen of Morgoth. They were mainly dormant in his abscence. Dragons, on the other hand, had a free (and reckless, i might add) will. Also, dragons varied much in color, power, and ability. Not as true with Balrogs. Sure, they varied in strength, but there size remained in the same ballpark and I've never heard of a blue Balrog (kind of fun to think about though, eh?). And, obviously, I am biased towards dragons *cough* *screen name* *cough*. So, dragons all the way.

This isn't really a thread for _opinions_. If it were, it wouldn't have gone to five pages in Books; five pages worth reading.

I think all this can be solved with a single quote from Peregrin Took. "Even the mightiest warrior may be slain by a single arrow." booya.