He definitely wouldn't do that, seeing as for all Elendil knows the person he sent his first dream to was a KM. Reveal to them and game over. He'd want to avoid identification at all costs at that stage- before Amandil has gotten a chance to check his recipient.

Warning
 

I did not specify which gifted it is and I am not planning to. I do not believe "drinking water" refers to either of the gifteds' gifts, and neither should you. The narration does not hint at the role, and is not supposed to - so I'm warning all of you now, before you all get crazy about some detail there and start arguing if it's Isildur or Elendil or Anarion: the story in the narration is irrelevant to Boro's role, so don't try to look for clues and hints in it.

BEcause what I really wanted to say would be censorred.

if Shasta dreamed Boro and boro was killed that means the KM anticipated Elendil's dream which in turn means they's is clever and I don't like clever wolves/KM they're tricky. To your point about the packmates in the voters I'd say probably only one KM voted Eomer... I just think it's too early for them to act too closely to each other this early. Though you are right Eonwe and Sally wereboth front runners before the last two minutes.

X'ed with moddess: see i was looking at his kingly stance and such not the drowning(though I get that now)

Well my hope for us just dropped a notch not to put down Isildur but his was probably the least needed power...(though useful in a pinch).

Bleh. Since he was weaponless I assumed not the Ranger and since he drowned I figured "Isildur in the Anduin".... but apparently not.

So in other words- possibly Elendil is dead? :rolleyes:

Fair point. Unless Borendil had somehow managed to send his first dream to Shastarion, he would have had no way of knowing - and actually, we didn't even know Shastarion was Anarion yet. I'd forgotten that bit.

EDIT: xed with Morsul and tp.

Well double crap- actually that makes some sense then. I just realized....

IF Boro assumed that the KMs would logically gun for Elendil until he was dead, then perhaps the safest thing to do would be to hint that you were a dreamer, because then it's a guarantee that you aren't Elendil!

Ugh...

Okay- I'm going to reread a bit...

Question: If Elendil dies, does his dream still come through since it's not actually him dreaming?

Honestly, I kept wondering why Boro kept referring to me as an example in those posts. Yet, if he were the dreamer, I think he'd find a more subtle way to hint his dream. So perhaps phantom is right about him possibly bluffing? Or maybe he didn't mean anything by it.

Btw, you people post way too much. I can never keep up. :p

Possibly. :cool:

Yes. I guess he prays to the Valar before he is killed, so the dream will be sent regardless of the Night's outcome.

Now if we are assuming his "example" was actually a hint can't we assume Brinn would be on this list as well. Or would Boro assume the first post was enough of a hint?

EDIT: x-ed Brinn and Modess

No. She'd be OFF the list because he said she was innocent.

Ah but this was his "no interest in voting for" list

Okay, so no matter what Shasta will have info. Well then- that's at least one leg of a plan accomplished.

Oh, gotcha. Sorry, I thought you were talking about his "list of 3" thing.

Perhaps he thought it would be overkill at that point to point at Brin again by listing her innocent?

But going off of my more recent formulation- that it was just a bluff to cover up a Boro-Elendil- that actually makes me feel slightly better about the likelihood of him being Elendil (in the sense that he wasn't Elendil), as if it was intended as a sure-fire bluff "Look at me, I had a dream thus I can't possibly be Elendil" then surely he would've stuck with consistency and put Brin on the innocent list.

Seriously, that seems right, doesn't it? If he was bluffing for the sake of protection wouldn't he have stuck to his guns a little more obviously?

I'd think so, we'll have shasta let us know what she found. I think we mentioned trying to just use innocent for gifteds to protect them but if she did dream boro and get his role that'd be surely useful. In fact if Boro wasn't the dreamed then I hate to while not conclusive that may point to boro being elendil(why dream yourself right?)

I dunno, though. Would he have wanted to attract that much attention? After all, it's one thing to make the KMs think "oh, it looks like he might have been the Dreamer - better not kill him, he's probably not Elendil" and quite another to hand them information on a silver platter. If they didn't have a solid Elendil prospect, they'd likely go after a semi-known Dreamer more than a suspected potential one. I'd think he'd be more likely to make perceptible hints but lay low.

EDIT: xed with Morsul

Psssst. Shasta's a sweet, handsome, psychic, wolf-catching boy child, not a wee lass like me.

Also, I'm thinking Elendil, like Isildur, can't affect himself with his gift. Accurate, yes/no? I may correct myself when I go poke at the admin thread, but I'm working on a post right now and am being quite lazy.

I think someone's told me that before too... misconception still stuck in my brain apparently.

~I've only skimmed the thread so far
 

I'd think so– and even without that, it would be a pretty risky bluff, even from a bold player like Boro. I mean, he couldn't know what the KM's priority would be.

–I've only skimmed the thread so far, so I'll have more to say in a moment.

EDIT:What the–? How did I put that heading in?

Yeah, and honestly that's a factor that I haven't quite figured out yet. In most of my KM thinking that I've tried I'm perpetually thinking Elendil is the only target, as his dreams simply must be silenced. But as an individual that has attracted far more than my share of very early (Night 1 or 2) dreams over the years, I think perhaps I'm hyper-threatened by a Seer role as a Baddie, and I can recall in the past Wolfpacks throwing me off my game a bit by not going with a Seer-first mentality.

So basically I always pay some sort of lip service to the possibility that maybe the Baddies are trying some other kill strategy, but I spend very little time actually following through on such alternatives to see how they would function. But let's try it....

So- let's assume for a moment that the Baddies believed Boro was not Elendil, but rather a dreamer. What then is their endgame? They must realize that by killing the dreamer they would not be killing Elendil (if their calculation was correct that is), thus what are they hoping for other than negating a dream? Elendil can still have another. And of course Shasta is still there waiting for them.

Okay- assume for a moment that the Baddies were correct and Boro was the dreamer and Brin is innocent. Then tonight she'll receive Ranger protection and she will dream, so they kill Shasta. Then tomorrow Brin reveals her dream, meaning we'll have 2 known innocents or 1 known inn and 1 known baddie.

With option number 1 the Ranger transfers protection to the dream target and the cycle repeats. Option 2 the baddies would take out Brin and Elendil would have to select a brand new recipient at random, which would possibly be a KM... And assuming a continuation of option 1 the dream would increasingly be more likely to be of the Ranger if he hadn't been dreamed of already, thus proceeding down the dream-chain killing would in fact kill him eventually thus freeing the KMs of his meddling.

Okay... I can maybe kinda see that strategy as an attempt to win, but wow would that have potential for danger. What if Boro and Brin are both Ordos? Then quite quickly Gifteds outnumber KMs and likely they could reveal with some amount of success, and the number of known innocents would simply be overwhelming.

I realize the odds of hitting Elendil would be lower assuming he did nothing to mark himself, but it still seems the logical choice, especially if you have some amount of confidence in your abilities to feel people out. If you hit him Night 2- bang. The game really turns.

I'm wondering if Boro is Anarion. that could potentially be as bad if not worse than elendil.

If elendil died then no dreams which stinks but it Anarion died and Shasta reveals an innocent, the next dreamer of the chain, the KM can take them out forcing elendil to play russian roulette with dreamers...

Alright, guys, I'd love to stick around longer, but I have class in nine hours, and work before and after that, and then more - a lot more - class after that, so I need sleeps now. I'll be online again around six and a half hours before DL. G'night!

Morsul the Dark: Now with a light candy coating
 

Morsul doesn’t say much for a while, mostly bantery things, thanking people for clearing things up, and signing on for the three person list plan. He does note that he doesn’t think revealing Isildur so soon is a good idea (one that I strongly agree with), but otherwise he likes Phantom (and even explicitly says so in one post) and his plan.

An interesting thing to note is his reaction to me. Here is what Phantom and I said:

And here is Morsul’s response to our thoughts.

At no point in that post did I indicate I planned to vote for Morsul; rather, I said I was hesitant to believe “any defense” based off alleged lack of knowledge. And, no offense, Master Phantom, but those “pretty good points” were not points so much as brief observations with no conclusion made from them. It looks like a Morsul being afraid of suspicion more than me trying to bandwagon, given that Phantom moved right along and my comment was made in passing.

After that he votes for me (following Eomer's lead and creating a tie between me and Steve), defends his vote and other comments, compliments Phantom’s plan again, and then vamooses.

Making a note now that I’m having a gut feeling about ties between Steve and Morsul.

I’d actually like this explained to me, if possible. Dun didn’t vote for me. If he were revealing me to Eomer with his list post, wouldn't he have also found sense in voting for me?

Clearly. But which was your reason, Morsul? Were you doing it because you thought I was guilty, because I was “bandwagoning” on you, or because you wanted to save Eomer? If it’s the third, why not just vote Steve? Oh, right. He looked fishy to you yesterDay but not vote-worthy. Why is that? If you were so concerned about saving Eomer, why go for a case that depended on Dun not following through with information instead of putting Steve further in the lead to protect Eomer?

After that, I am accused of being suspicious for suspecting him (which I officially do at this point in the thread). Brinn and Zil are given a pass for voting Eomer, but Steve and myself? Steve’s a bird and I was only voting to save myself, apparently. Once again, I must fault Morsul for not actually reading the words that are coming out of others’ fingers. Assuming he read my post, he would have seen this:

I cited the same reasons as the other three Morsul mentioned in his post, yet he disregards my post and claims I simply wanted to save myself. Fair enough, I suppose, as I have no other way to save myself from a lynch, but those weren’t my reasons, and I said so. Why so sore about me suspecting you, sir?

After that there’s a bunch of talking about Boro’s possible role (most of it just being speculation and/or that thing where we thought the narrations might actually mean stuff) and some mistaken gender identity and the like.

In short, a very touchy creature, that much is clear. A vague "suspicion" from me and he seems to think I’ll show up at his house with a pitchfork. Now that the passing sarcasm has turned into actual suspicion, I wonder how he’ll react. He certainly doesn’t seem like someone who has nothing to hide though, and his desire to push for my lynch rather than Steve’s (despite that being counterproductive to the goal he says he had) doesn’t make him look any better in my eyes. The important question is: how does he appear in the eyes of the king?

Well, I was hoping Shasta might be around tonight, but I can't stick around much longer. I'm a bit sick and I'm starting to feel like I could fall asleep finally so I'm going to go ahead and get some rest...

See you all tomorrow.

Well, I'm around. I'm just.... debating, if you will.

Mänwe agrees with the three person plan, speaks of it in more detail, has good points about the ranger’s role in said plan, and urges caution and discretion. He is against Isildur revealing, like me, but his points on the mechanics of the game are lessened by the little to no commentary on those playing in it. I’m hoping he’ll be around more toDay.

Wonderful Mänwe
(I now say Stanley)
Seeing what he could see
He had no real chances
To suspect the masses
And so he decided to flee

Steve mostly speaks of the game’s mechanical issues as well, though he does have bad feelings about Eomer (whom he eventually votes, for considering skipping the lunch -I mean lynch- for the Day) and me (for a general bad feeling). He barely votes in time for it to count, and it certainly didn’t seal Eomer’s fate, but I’ll give him consistency for yesterDay. Other than that, not much I can say.

The lynches! The lynches! Who will we believe?
Maybe the thoughts of articulate Steve?
The Night kills! The Night kills! Could Boro not stay?
At least for now let us not blame Eönwë

In both cases, I'm afraid I don't have a very strong pull toward guilt or innocence, at least based on their own merits. I promised our moddess a tune or seven(teen), and I always keep my promises, so there's that. Not a song so much as a rhyme, but it should do the trick, at least for now. Speaking of now, it’s sleepy time. I’d hoped to accomplish more, but at least I’ve crossed three people off my list, and I’ll hopefully have most of tomorrow to look at other people and see what I can see.

See, the thing is, the person revealed to me was an innocent Phantom, so I could definitely see Boro being a dead Elendil. Which... is sad.

Whichever gifted Boro was, it seems he was one we needed. Well, crap....

If this were the case, then Elendil would have to choose between sending the dream to phantom or Shasta once more...so yeah, I see what you're getting at. But Elendil wouldn't even know for sure if Boro was the ranger (a 50/50 chance in this scenario). Of course the baddies cannot know the exact role of the gifteds either, so they'd have to take a risk to assume Anarion is dead.

It's good to know phantom is indeed innocent. Not that I had a reason to suspect him, but after previous games, I tend to have trust issues when it comes to him. :rolleyes:

I will only be able to be around for the mid-Day today, will have to vote early and made it here just now.

I shall keep reading and re-reading, but initial thoughts:

Given that Shasta dreamed us an innocent phantom, this would mean that tp should have us an innocent from the first night, assuming that Elendil gave a dream then.

Votes: Brinniel and Nerwen made points on not adding new people to the voting. I'll need to check the times, but I don't like that point - if you don't believe anyone on the voting list is a KM, it's better to (potentially) lose a vote than to vote an innocent. And if you do, why keep mentioning that you only vote within the already-voted, since you'd then have other things to say as well.

What is fascinating is also Eomer's race to the top - three votes very close to the end, two from people who thus saved themselves and each other. I'm pondering whether it would be worth considering that Sally and Eonwe be packmates, or just to suspect that at least one of the three late-voters is a KM. I'll need to read more in order to elaborate.

Regarding the night-kill: I wonder why did Boro's plan not work? Did they, indeed, want to kill the dreamer (which would point to Brinniel indeed being innocent, for otherwise KM would know he's bluffing)? Did they see through his bluff (which might show that Brinniel's guilty, but not very clearly)? Did they ignore the bluff and want to kill him for some other reason? And why would that be?

Mmmn, well that was more than a minute, wasn't it? Sorry, real life happens to the best of us, you know.

So phantom was the Night One Dreamer, then? His earlier posting toDay is then some kind of elaborate ploy (but what do you expect?) Or did Elendil depart from the plan?

Okay, all Nerwen, Brinn, sally and phantom suspected Morsul, yet the two first ones decided that it is unwise to bring a new candidate in? Whilst I can see that it is scary not to leave someone time to defend themselves, I'm not sure if the rush against Eomer was any better in that aspect. There clearly was support to the idea, no-one just started voting.

Another reminder: the gifteds' roles are not revealed, not in narrations and not in dreams.

That's right. Elendil doesn't actually have any information himself, and no one dreams about him.



Today I'm coming home quite late and I'm afraid I'll only skim through the thread before DL. So if you have any other questions I'd ask you to please bold or highlight them so that I don't miss them accidentally.

This is coming in bits now.

So, Eonwe suspects sally and Eomer, votes for Eomer (thus pretty much saving sally). What made you decide between the two?

Brinn, as already mentioned, suspects Morsul, yet votes for Eomer. Were you hoping that someone would take your lead and vote Morsul, so that you wouldn't be the first one? Or what?

Sally votes for Eomer though she too suspects Morsul. Is this mainly a revenge vote?

??? :confused: Firstly, Pom, I didn't say "I don't believe anyone on the voting list is a KM". And secondly, I didn't say I "only vote with the already-voted" even once, let alone "keep mentioning" it. Where did all that come from?

I don't think the circumstances require a Sally + Steve theory to explain them, no. It's always likely enough that a substantial bandwagon on an innocent includes a wolf. If I had to pick *one* of them right now, I think Steve would be my guess– though that's more a feeling at the moment (and, to be fair, I may be picking it up from other people– I need to read back over yesterDay).

*shrugs* Well, the usual, I suppose: he's always a dangerous player, and no doubt his death frames someone-or-other– but neither of those seem adequate, do they?
EDIT:X'd Since last post.

Nerwen: this is what I was referring to. 'Keep mentioning' is too strong, I admit, that's just the impression I got since there were a few of you using the same point.

And on Boro-kill: indeed, a dangerous player, but given that phantom is innocent, if dangerous-ness would've been the criterion, surely KM would've gone that way.

But yeah, my brain seems to be a bit off at the moment - I'm feeling like catching a cold, and everything seems stuffy. I'll get some coffee and go to school for a bit, but after that I won't have too much time before I have to leave and vote - I'll keep pondering. Right now I have no idea who'd be my candidate.

Well, there were four minutes to DL at that point. Hardly enough time to reasonably expect a bandwagon to occur - that vote would probably have been a throw-away, so I can see Nerwen not wanting to do that.


I believe the 'dangerousness' being referred to is his playing yesterDay, not his playing in general. He put himself out there a bit too much, hinted a bit too strongly, and the KMs picked up on it.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not actually here. Just re-reading the thread quickly before I head out.

I'm referring to the bolded line, I didn't ignore the rest just found that second reason far more telling.

And my theory clearly wasn't perfect it just seemed to me that Eomer's vote was too random to be random so I looked for a reason for the sudden vote. YEs I probably should've looked at Zil's Vote. Truth is didn't even occur to me, it should have but it didn't.

I'm in a position I'm all too familiar with lots of people suspect me, I'm innocent , but the more I defend it the more suspicious I am. The good old Morsul logic works for me every time.:rolleyes: I think that may be the real reason I was spared a few votes yesterday I tend to be an easy lynch down the road at a more critical time.

Moving on:

phantom is innocent, well That's good. I do hope Shasta is wrong on Boro's role. sadly we won't know unless the others reveal(a plan I do NOT advocate at all.)

Been rereading yesterday and today so far a few times. post more in a bit more pondering to do.

So, I did start a post a few hours ago, but then I had a random powercut so I lost it. Catching up now.