To everyone who's not eager to lynch me, I'd prefer Inzil over Mnemo a lot.

Voting time approaches. Have I already said I hate Day 1 votes?
Leaving our obvious loudmouths aside, I've got to say Mac makes me most uneasy at the moment. Double standards, general slipperyness, plus the flip-flopping Zil pointed out. It's more a vibe-matter than reasoning, but that's what I have to go on right now.
++Macalaure

A vote for Nienna seems throwaway now... so the question is, Nogrod or Mnemo...

Although seeing Mac's latest post I wouldn't necessarily say it's innocent... which is a pity because I did think him innocent more or less all Day... hmm...

I would also prefer Zil over Mnemo or Mac.

'Overblown certainty'? That was Nog, not you. :p
You gave no reasons for your sudden shift in how I looked to you, and like I said, that wasn't the only point I saw against you.

I hate that we always seem to do this, Mac. :rolleyes:

Thank you, Nienna.

But Inzil doesn't seem to bad, Mac.

++Mnemo


edit: xed with everybody, as with the few last posts but I was too lazy to mark it

For what it's worth, I don't think a wolf out of water (aka Mnemo....yeah, I know, I made a lame Disney pun) would do a coin flip or even suggest it, as she would know it could get her some votes.

I'm actually kind of suspicious of Shasta right now; call it a hunch. Roa seems too strange to me (and as usual, the first Day is rubbish and I'm only able to sparknotes how I think) and while Nog looks weird I trust him so far. Boro's clearly the devil. ;)

And Mac? Bwah? I'll have to look at him toMorrow. For now though, I'll go with:

++Roa


We don't have to highlight, do we? *hates being rushed* I'll do all I can toNight to catch up and make sure we're in a better spot toMorrow.

neither does Mnemo...

I don't see anything on either Mnemo or Mac and I'd rather neither went.

++Inziladun

Not where I expected my vote to have to go, at all, but I don't see any more support for Nogrod, and none at all for Eomer.

Nonsense, Inzil. I had valid reasons, though not very good ones, to suspect you. Then you defended yourself and it looked good, but still your lack of original points made it impossible to think you're innocent with some certainty. Lacking anybody better, you were a possible vote for me. Now with my life on the block, I choose you over Mnemo. That's all.

*shurg* Maybe, but worse than Inzil or Mac...

I have the feeling this'll be chaotic.

edit: xed with people again

Me 3, Mnemo 3, Inzil 3?

Let's try then...

++ Roa

++Inziladun

I don't like to go there every game either... :(

Ties=Evil. :mad:

Is that legal?


ETA: Never mind. It was in quotes before in his post, but it's fixed now.

All right, Mac. I really didn't want to vote for you, since I always suspect you. But to ensure my survival:

++ Mac

Arrghh! I'm sorry, I'm not happy with voting any of the leads, but

++Mac

for dodgy reasoning.

EDIT:X'd with a host.

*pulls out hair* See what I come back to?

Deadline. The Day is over.

Narration is coming up soon here also along with the Day's outcome. I will count and check the votes. In case you are around here and reading this and are not in desperate need to leave, I suggest that you patiently wait like five to ten minutes at most for the narration to be posted. And not do anything else. Yet.

First game in I don't know how long and I get lynched on Day1.... :rolleyes:

4-4 tie? *confusion and mess*

edit: sorry for the lateness, my computer clock is like 30 seconds late or something... :o

Expedition Journal - Night 2 Entry
 

Our discussion on that day has been far from a discussion of professional investigators. Despite the efforts of all of us to focus on our most immediate concern, our discussion kept changing forms. At first it often slipped into an academic debate. It could be seen that we were scientists - stranded and in a dire situation, but scientists nevertheless. Later however, the process thrust us into a heated dispute.

In the end the majority seemed convinced that it was our meteorologist who was responsible, but our decision was far from unambiguous. There was one unused compartment on the ship where we locked him, despite his protests. It was an act of fear which even further undermined our morale. However, at least some of us seemed hopeful enough, being convinced that we have caught the culprit. The more realistic were reminding us that there was nothing to celebrate as our communication with the outer world was still severed and our ship as much trapped as before the incident. Neither of those two groups, though, could have foreseen the full scale of horror that was to break out in this prison of ice.

By 10 AM of the following day we have split into two groups again, some staying on the ship and trying to finish what our poor lead enginer had started, some taking a trip on feet further on, towards the sole landmark nearby: the rumoured unknown island or ice floe which some have spotted the day before. As the sky lightened, we could see its shape rising against the southern sky. It was hardly an hour's walk from our place, and both of our polar biology experts encouraged us to go there. There was but a slight hope of being able to see another mark of civilation from up there, but no doubt a psychological effect also played its part. Our ship was too small for everyone to take part in the repairs, not to mention that many of us had no real experience in such matters whatsoever. Such ones would appreciate the chance to move and do something which seemed at least partially sensible. We didn't know how long we will be forced yet to stay on the ship, yet we feared that it might be too long.

LIVING MEMBERS OF THE EXPEDITION:

Inziladun - meteorologist
Mnemosyne - field medic
Boromir88 - senior assistant to a professor of glaciology
Eomer of the Rohirrim - sea pilot
Loslote - rich funder's spoiled daughter
Morsul - federal grants lawyer
Brinn - polar bear biologist
Pitchwife - marine biologist
Nienna - navigator
Nogrod - old palaeoecologist with is own theory of climate change
Macalaure - palaeomathematician
sally - the original initiator of the expedition
Thinlómien - whale expert
Nerwen - mechanic
Roa - survival guide
Bes - room/store manager
Shasta - sled-dog handler
wilwa - crewmember
Greenie - senior assitant to important scientists in the company
tromkehra - cook/bartender

LYNCHES:

would-be Day 1 lynchee: Inziladun

The team made the decision not to cause death on the first Day. Nobody is lynched toDay. There will also be no Night kill among the players. See this post on the admin thread for more details.

Night 2 begins. Werewolves, you may start PMing each other, but no Night kill is going to take place this time. Ranger and Hunter may start PMing too. No posting on this thread again until the next Day.

Expedition Journal - Day 2 Entry
 

The landmark was indeed not very far from the place where our trapped ship was now stationed. Soon we discovered that it was indeed an island, a piece of barren rock sticking out of the masses of ice, only barely covered with snow. It was the young glaciologist who remarked that in this latitude it is common for land masses to be covered with snow all year, yet recently, periods have been observed when even in such places there came occassional thaws. We did not realise yet back then what importance this fact will have for us in the very following days. But finally there was something to occupy our scientific minds with, finally after what seemed like ages a normal discussion arose. Where were we? We pitied the loss of our equipment, as we could not have been sure which particular island we are on. There were not many, not even small islands in these parts, yet no one of us has been to these particular parts of the Arctic Ocean, and we spent a lot of time arguing over the maps. At last, we decided to return to the ship.

As much as our minds have been distracted from the horrors which have occured aboard before, we could not have escaped them once we have returned. After barely a few hours of peaceful sleep, furious barking and growling could be heard from the compartments where our huskys have been stationed. Awakened by the hideous sound we all rushed to the place. The door of the first of the two rooms containing our dogs was ajar and, by the time the first of us have arrived, the sounds inside have stopped. To our horror, even from the outside we could see red stains on the floor. At last our survival guide along with the original sled-dog handler picked the courage to step in. When they emerged, they looked pale and sick; our survival guide was breathing deeply and the other man just shook his head and said: "Somebody has butchered them all."

We were all shaken. So was this another attempt to cripple our efforts to get out of here? "The meteorologist!" somebody cried, and we rushed to the compartment only to find it safely locked from the outside just as we have left it. There was no way the man would have done it, unless somebody opened the door for him and then locked him in again - yet all of us have been at the place of slaughter together. A culprit could have managed to slip among us unnoticed, but he would not have had the time to walk all the way to the other side of the ship, lock the meteorologist inside and come back again without being noticed. Pressurized by the part of our company which was against incriminating him in the first place, we released our meteorologist. As far as the butchering of our sled-dogs was concerned, he must have been innocent - unless he had an accomplice, a thought already some started to voice.

But who would do something like that? And why? What would anybody get from leaving us in this prison of ice? We found it far more reasonable to think that we are looking at the work of a dangerous madman - yet the truth, as we were to learn soon, was far more hideous.

LIVING MEMBERS OF THE EXPEDITION:

Inziladun - meteorologist
Mnemosyne - field medic
Boromir88 - senior assistant to a professor of glaciology
Eomer of the Rohirrim - sea pilot
Loslote - rich funder's spoiled daughter
Morsul - federal grants lawyer
Brinn - polar bear biologist
Pitchwife - marine biologist
Nienna - navigator
Nogrod - old palaeoecologist with is own theory of climate change
Macalaure - palaeomathematician
sally - the original initiator of the expedition
Thinlómien - whale expert
Nerwen - mechanic
Roa - survival guide - innocent (information added 1:45h after DL - see the admin thread)
Bes - room/store manager
Shasta - sled-dog handler
wilwa - crewmember
Greenie - senior assitant to important scientists in the company
tromkehra - cook/bartender

LYNCHES:

would-be Day 1 lynchee: Inziladun

Day 2 begins. Werewolves, Hunter and Ranger, stop PMing. Everyone, you may start posting here and voting for whom to lynch toDay.

So what happened yesterday...on Mondays and Wednesdays I return from my research expeditions at 3:30 (EST) and for some reason I calculated 5 to be the DL. When Morsul said it was 4 for him, I was a little confused, because he's in EST too. But for whatever reason, when I returned from the expedition I had it in my mind it was 5 pm, and I take my jolly good time writing a post, believing I had over an hour to vote. By the time I post it, it's 17 minutes past the DL.

I didn't cast my vote yet, still thinking I had a while, but I was leaning towards Inzil and this is the post that I deleted from yesterday...

-------

My apologies, but try to get used to it. I'm very theatrical, over-the-top, and sometimes sarcastic, which of course can be seen as inflammatory. Interesting backpedalling yourself though...

For what it's worth I have no intention of voting for you. For once you don't have to feel like I'm a vote for you "waiting to happen." :p

It's not because you've defended me, but you were dead on about wolf-Boro backing away from controversial statements, and not desiring to slam down to try and prove I'm right. Of course Eomer and Morsul are also right to point out my unpredictability and the thrill of the fight, as a wolf, I wouldn't say I'm more cautious, but I definitely choose my battles more carefully.

I love the feeling of having no responsibility besides making a vote. I can just say whatever I want and not care what happens to me, nor feel like if I die early that I'm letting anyone down. :D

Anyway, the bigger reason is I think Inzil's case is not only weak, but faulty.

I don't get it, and to be honest I was questioning Mac's motives when he first made the post of people reacting to my controversy. However, that wariness was because I questioned his motives, it had nothing to do with the "speed" that he did it. Once Mac provided his reasons for doing it, the wariness went away.

Nerwen had a point that at least one wolf would probably ignore the controversy altogether, but that doesn't disprove the fact that Mac is correct, several people jumped on it, and then several more either agreed with me, or then back-pedalled there is likely wolf involvement. Greenie said the debate itself over who is right, or if I'm using terrible logic, is pointless, but it did provide lots of reading and involvement from nearly everyone.

I was wary of Mac at first, but it had nothing to do with the speed with which he did it. To suspect him for jumping in too fast is weak and faulty.

--------

That was it, so now debate this...You have 24 hours - the time that this post appears.

I've also finished going through 11 people's posts from yesterday, of course the bottom half of the posters, because reading through all you jabber-mouth scientists is just tedious. Plus, it took me much longer than I thought to go through wilwa's posts. :p I will post my thoughts on all of 'em in a bit and try to get the rest of you done by the end of the day. No guarantees there.

Can we assume that based on people believing there would be an actual lynch that neither Inzil nor Mac are gifted?

Okay. I think it’s my time to come into the open then.

For those of you who don’t know it, let it be said we have a colourful past in werewolfing, Roa and I. It was Roa’s second and my first game when we first met and I was the seer who dreamt of her being a wolf on the first Night and after a full Day of single-minded pursuit by me - trying to find any possible slip and ranting on it (that newbie me!) we finally lynched her (and I was killed the next Night). After that we have played the dog and cat thing almost every game – even if to speak the truth we have been able to collaborate a few times as well.

But that’s a kind if special thing for me at least – even if I’m losing it in numbers (just remembered the first Dueling Wizards…).

But to the issue then.

I thought of Roa’s “mistake” on the number of wolves as a bluff to begin with as I couldn’t believe she would honestly miss it – whatever she much later said about her last game, or the quite clumsy defence of saying “that would be too obvious”!!! One can also say one is innocent... :)

But then I saw Roa jumping on Boro (and yes dear Roa, I saw you jumping, whatever you say about just disagreeing and not suspecting him – therefore I said it was not of the essence what you said you were doing.). I thought she was really trying to make Boro look bad on purpose whilst I found Boro’s remarks totally reasonable (heh, later she said it would be a trophy for me as a wolf to get an innocent loudmouth aka. her to lynch... but aren't we too similar in here; you tried the same with Boro?).

And lay and behold, it seemed to work: Nerwen followed suite in the questioning making Boro the primary object of discussions and later a few people, especially Bes, took your lead and started openly talking about Boro being suspicious.

Perfect wolvery to my eyes. But how to get more evidence for or against from the most reasonable player there is? So how to get Roa to react in a way that would reveal her alignment? I knew it wouldn’t be easy and no normal suspicion would do (I’ve learned that much during the years).


Suddenly I got the idea I thought was really great. So why not press her like “for the old times sake” and pose as someone who actually knew she was a wolf (like I was back then in our first meeting) and look how she would react to a possible “flashback from the past”? So if she was a wolf indeed, she would have to relive that first game and that might just bring her off her guard…


And before going into Roa's posts after my suspicions of her, let me just point to this as I must still note that Roa’s reaction to Boro’s post is overwhelmingly overdone and – I’d like to say - consciously misinterpreted. Just compare these.
"Roalysis" to come in a moment...

So it's basically another Day1 again? I think we should annoy Roa and start in-character posting all over again! :p

Ok, of course it's not a perfect Day1. While we still have zero knowledge, we already have amassed plenty of antagonism and enmity yesterDay to make for an entertaining Day. ;)


Even though we have no knowledge of roles, the votes deserve analysing. It's of debatable use, but we don't have any better.

Morsul -> Mac (well-reasoned vote, considering how early it was)
Roa -> Nogrod (a bit knee-jerk, if you ask me. not as well-considered as I would expect it from Roa)
Brinn -> Nerwen (she mentions Nerwen's jumping on Roa's attack on Boro, something I found suspicious, too, so I'm not completely objective here)
Mnemo -> Inzil (she mentioned him and Pitch before her vote, but her reasoning is vague at best)
Green -> Mnemo (has been after her consistently, reasons seem valid)
Eomer -> Mnemo(2) (nothing mentionworthy about this vote. seems alright)
Bes -> Mac(2) (vote out of nowhere. cites Inzil's points against me as reason. not thrilled, especially since Inzil's points were already drawing on Pitch's points)
Pitch -> Mac(3) (he suspected me before, but the vote post bugs me - first he pretty much throws every accusation he can think of at me, and then he adds that it's more of a vibe thing. makes little sense in this combination and looks more like an attempt to fuel a bandwaggon)
Lommy -> Mnemo(3) (has been quite consistent, but not much in terms of reasoning)
Sally -> Roa (a throwaway. Sally hasn't provided much to analyse)
Shasta -> Inzil(2) (bites on the alternative option I tried to push. I'd like to know why he was so sure about the innocence of Mnemo and me)
Nienna -> Inzil(3) (ditto)
Nogrod -> Roa(2) (motivated by Sally's vote, I suppose. the vote alone is not suspicious)
Mac -> Inzil(4) (I was pretty afraid to cross with Inzil's expectable vote for me, I can tell you)
Inzil -> Mac(4) (self-preservation. was suspicious of me, but expressed regret that we always seem to clash. I share that regret... :( )
Nerwen -> Mac(5) (didn't count, but that doesn't matter. she suspected me before and does this kind of sniping frequently, but there are no posts in between "back, reading" (40 mins before deadline) and her vote. dissatisfying)

did not vote: Boro, Wilwa, trom, Lottie

Those of you who have not been around for long may find the concept of "Devil's advocate reading" on someone a strange concept. So let me explain.

"A Devil's advocate reading" of someone means that one reads another from the POV s/he is a wolf and analyses everything in that vein trying to see if that would make a believable pattern / whole. The DAR can be a mighty weapon in catching wolves but it may also backfire badly when one let's her/his imagination to run free looking only at the possible guilt.

I'm not exactly true to DAR here as I also try to see where she might be believably innocent at times, but I must admit there is a lot of it in what follows. And now as I've come clear I'd like to hear your comments Roa. After all any outstanding ordo getting killed is a great loss to us.


This is her first reaction to my suspicion:
That might go either way… But she continues in the same vein in her next one.

I just can’t make these interpretations of Roa and what Boro actually said to meet… And the next one is actually as much overdonme and pointless.

I was not continuing the debate, I was taking another angle to it and finding Roa suspicious… not to say I was pointing to wolves how to spot gifteds. I mean how was I doing that Roa? I see this post as totally confusing and have a real problem seeing an innocent Roa making it.

The next post (#84) is also interesting as Roa seems really defensive – especially if what I said is totally frivolous like she says… So why bother then? There was no heavy overall suspicion on her at that point. And also she is careful enough to actually trying to make friends with Boro as well explaining her own words better than they were in the first place.

Then I think she makes an interesting move saying (in #88)
Which is clearly reading another person wrong in purpose… I said Boro made a good reminder of the fact that reasonable-looking people (counting reasonable-looking wolves) tend to pass our radars and the gifteds can look suspicious because of their position and pressure. And even if I answered her second question she never commented on that – so just rhetorics?

Then we come to the heavy ammunition part…

Fair enough - as I have revealed. And I must say I felt a thorn in my side while reading this as it was true. But the continuation was a stretch to put it mildly… or should I say revealing?

A secret role… a cobbler… what an anticlimax. And as I have argued already on D1 it would be the most stupid thing to come into the center of controversy as a cobbler needs to stay alive into the Days where her/his involvement actually matters.

But interestingly Roa is now talking openly of me hinting at being the seer – as she feels like it as I’m right? – like our game long long ago perhaps? The same feeling might it be?

And a false reveal? Well a good move but sadly not one you would see.

In the next one she says.

I hope I have now answered your craving for other reasons to suspect you? The capital letters do suggest some desperation to me, but we do express things differently and so I’m not going to make an issue out of it as I don’t feel comfortable with it.

The continuation of that post looked like pretty smart one as ideas go…

But really she can’t say with this bunch of people that she and I gone the expedition-ship would be quiet… or even significantly quieter. I know many of the people around could fill the silence we ‘d leave around… and "a cobbler me" would really want to make a difference later in the game when it matters...

Then she went on to make a conditionally true statement.

Agreed. But the last sentence makes me wonder again.

First I thought “wow, she’s making a confession!” But then I read it again and felt confused. I really don’t get the meaning of that… It so much looks like she’s saying that if she were in my position being able to press on me like I do she’d love it (so actually revealing she was really in trouble) but it couldn’t be as I don’t think Roa would slip that way…

Her last one is an interesting one as well… so answering to Eomer she says

I can see the innocent / guilty anguish there. But how about I was not in the first place willing to “make a case” on D1? How about I was just willing to find your reactions – and part of that game would be that I would not stick to whatsoever suspicion to try and “prove” your guilt, but just letting you know I was after you like I told earlier today to see how you react? To make you feel I know what you are like years ago?

Sorry Roa, that might have been a rude experiment but with the best one needs to use the most cunning methods… and by God I was wavering near the DL as I thought I might get killed the next Night. But then I reasoned it out that if I was right my death would point at Roa clearly enough and if I was wrong the amount of suspicion I had gathered could keep me alive. So I decided to watch the cards through to whatever end they were carrying me.

This “mercy-Day/Night” idea was just superb! :)


So what do I think myself?

Well I do still suspect Roa. There are so many things that yell wolf to me up there. But I have been looking at others as well during this no-kill Night as I had time. O just need to collect my notes into a reasonable post...


PS. Thanks for the vote-summary Mac! That was a thing I had not made yet... It will help me a lot.

YesterDusk was... interesting.

But this was a very good and a very novel idea, because now that our votes are actually going to count we have some concrete information to go after...

well, the votes at least.

And because yesterDusk was so interesting we actually have a lot more material to go off of instead of if there had been a bandwagon. A lot of players, it appears, felt forced to make some tough choices.

Which is why I've decided that I'm not going to vote to try to save people anymore, much less vote "politically." And I encourage others to follow suit. Granted, we all had little information to go off of yesterday, and we have little more information to go off of today. But when everyone's doing this sort of thing it creates divisions within the crew, divisions that wolves will be all too happy to exploit.

YesterDay I had to vote early off no more information than gut feelings, and now that I've had the space of a day to think about it I'd like to actually analyze what I think is setting those feelings off. Feelings, after all, can be really misleading--especially mine (I can think of several other players who've managed to make inspired votes by intuition!).

But that'll be a while later.

Something I think you should all know at the moment about me (and this is NOT an excuse!) is that every single Day this week the end of the day is sandwiched in between classes where my attention has to be elsewhere. I can't quite achieve the level of focus that I'd like, the way I've been able to in previous games when the deadline's been easier for me. So especially as the game gets rolling and we get more information I might be voting much earlier in the Day, when I have swaths of free time to get my thoughts and analytical powers in focus.

But I do want to take a deeper look at Inziladun and Pitchwife toDay.

Love the idea and the execution thereof, Legate!

My first thought was that it probably benefits the expedition as it gives us more info to work with, but I shouldn't think clever wolves will let it hinder them. What it does do is allow those who had to vote early further opportunities to make a good contribution, and also allocates to them the responsibility to use this and not bank on a casual Day One vote.

Not that I think there were too many casual votes but there often are in these games!

Now, I want to hear from the people who didn't really show up yesterday!

I like how people are still using this word. Makes me proud. According to the search engine, I coined it back in 2005 (and I don't think I stole it from anyone :p ).

It's still not in the dictionary.

I've considered co-authoring a book with Nog about werewolf/werebear tips, maybe you can write a chapter on "Terminology?" :p

And Wednesday, again I'm on a glacier expedition until 3:30, I need to collect data on Glacier Nip X "Zero" T, because it's bumping into Glacier Y2Delta. So I'm going to have to vote a few hours before the DL, to avoid the mistake yesterday and not feel rushed to get back and vote.

Toward the end of YesterDay I was desperately looking around, trying to find someone who looked worse than Mac. Every time we've played together we've tended to focus on one another for some reason. As the votes for me mounted, I did what I could to save myself. Mac's reactions as it looked as though it would be him to go actually make him look a bit better to me toDay.
I possibly should have mentioned this already, but each weekDay the DL arrives in the middle of my work day, so my activity in the hours leading up to it may be sporadic. That said, I'm still trying to read and ruminate as much as possible.
I'm glad we have this 'do over'. More posts to look at, and more appearances from the submarines (hopefully).
My issue with Mac had mostly to do with what I saw as an exaggeration of my part in the Boro-versy. Honestly, what Boro said wasn't a terribly big deal to me, and Mac seemed to be saying I was jumping on Boro and trying to make him look bad. I hardly responded to Boro at all, and I felt it was Mac who was trying to blow that up into a case against me.

Ooooouh, do I see a new thread coming on? :)

The Theory of WW - An Introduction.

Nog, I found that act you pulled yesterDay extremely puzzling, but with the explanation you've given now, it kinda makes sense. As for your actual case against Roa, I've got to mull it over - it'll be interesting to see how she reacts now, anyway.

Either I don't get that, or it's non sequitur. People wouldn't have voted to lynch either in earnest if they were gifted? Wolves would certainly have done it. And innocents have done it before by mistake, as was discussed at some length yesterDay (by yourself, among others) - which discussion should have reminded us to be more careful not to make the same mistake again, but it's no guarantee. So I don't see how we can assume anything about Zil's and Mac's roles, pro or con, based on the votes for them.

I see why you think there's a contradiction here, but there actually isn't - only perhaps poor wording. What I meant is, I wasn't sure the things I found suspicious against you added up to a logical case, but they sort of resonated with each other to create a vibe, which was the only thing I could base a vote on at the time.
That said, I'd really like to hear some reasons for your changing opinions about Zil that go beyond seems and feels. I totally didn't see where you came from yesterDay, and I don't now. (The same to Mnemo, by the way!)

(x-ed with Boro and Zil)

Reposting from the admin thread
 

I have to announce that Roa unfortunately had to withdraw from the game (for RL reasons, she just cannot afford to play now). I can no longer put that into toDay's narration, but I will make her leave on the following Day. In any case, she won't be participating anymore toDay so you can leave her out also of your Wolf-hunting. For the record, she was an innocent ordinary member of the expedition.

I will put a short note of her role into the Night 2 summary, too, for easy referrence.

I was going to repeat Legate's news, so I'll just say what a pity, Nog. All that work for nothing. ;)