<BR>Heh heh</b><br><br> The last post to do with Elrond being a vampire was about the tenth. Then something struck, and the conversation somehow manipulated itself into abbev. of names. Search me <p>- <i>enep</i></p>

<BR><br><br> Having studied Irish for two years, I find that I am more or less pronouncing words correctly on my re-reading of LOTR. There is a fair amount of Celtic (Keltik) influence on Tolkien's invented languages, as is widely known. <p></p>

<BR><br><br> Gaelic you mean? I think Tolkien based the black language on it. If I recall he hated it and thought it uncooth. But you are probably right about being able to pronounce words better. <p>"It seems fate is not without a sense of irony."</p>

<BR><br><br> Durelen: Sindarin was based on Welsh, I'm pretty sure. <p></p>

<BR><br><br> Welsh and Irish are both Celtic languages and are quite similar, in terms of grammar and syntax. I understand that Prof. Tolkien said that he disliked &quot;Gaelic&quot;, but I cannot see how he found it harsh and uncouth. The fricitive consonants are softer than in, say, German, and the eclipses soften the sound even further. In comparison to Irish, many Irish speakers find English to be rather brash and lacking in subtlety. <br> <br> I recognise little Irish in the Black Speech, but more in Elvish. This of course could be by way of the Welsh influence on Tolkien. I also understand that Finnish may be an even greater influence on the Elvish.<br> <br> Nuair a bhí mé óg, bhí mé i mo chonaí i dTír na nÓg. Caithain aois níos mó a bheidh agam, agus fuair mé bás, beidh mé ansin arís, tá súil agam. <p></p>

<BR><br><br> Maybe instead of Gael, he was talking about Gaul. Didn't the Prof. not like French much? <p></p>

<BR><br><br> That also is true. I don't think it is Gual that I am thinking of. But I still persist that Tolkien used Finnish and Welsh for the basis of his Elvish languages. And I am almost positive about the Gaelic, I remember reading it somewhere, maybe I will have to go back through and try to find where I read it.<br> <br> Tir na Nog, that used to be a TV show in the US. <p>"It seems fate is not without a sense of irony."</p>

<BR><br><br> <i> Letters</i> talks about this:<br> <br> Letter 144:<br> <br> <blockquote><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> &quot;Actually(Quenya)might be said to be composed on a Latin basis with two other(main)ingredients that happen to give me 'phonoaesthetic' pleasure:Finnish and Greek.&quot;<hr></blockquote><br> <br> Same letter:<br> <br> <blockquote><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> &quot;The living language of the Western Elves(Sindarin or Grey-elven)is the one usually met,especially in names.This is derived from an origin common to it and Quenya;but the changes have been deliberately devised to give it a linguistic character very like(though not identical with)British-Welsh.&quot;<hr></blockquote><br> <br> The Gaelic reference must be in there somewhere... <p>Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

<BR><br><br> Tír na nÓg (Tír = country, Óg = young) is the &quot;Land of Youth&quot; in Irish. This refers to a mythical place where the Sidhe reside, and where death, disease and aging are not present. It is described as being beyond the confines of our world. There is the story of the man Oisín who was a member of the famed Fianna warriors, who was allowed to reside in Tír na nÓg, where he remained the same while centuries passed in the world at large.<br> <br> c = k reminds me of the old saying, &quot;mind your P's and Q's&quot;. This may refer to the time when the Brythonic and Goidelic (Gaelic) split into their respective branches from the Old Celtic language, and where the British (now Welsh) changed the Q (hard K sound) to the P sound, i.e. &quot;mac&quot;, son in Irish, becomes &quot;map&quot;, son in Welsh. (Incidently, &quot;welsh&quot; means foreigner or outsider in Anglo-Saxon, and Wales in the Welsh tounge is called Cymru).<br> <br> Do we see the same sort of developmental story with the Elvish languages? I'm supposing that the whole story of the Indo-European language group had more of an influence on Tolkien's languages of Middle Earth than any single language, though he obviously drew more from some than from others.<br> <br> Hmm, this is quite a digression from &quot;Elrond the Vampire&quot;... <p></p>

<BR><br><br> Oh, it is the actual Galeic name for those lands. I know a bit about Finn and Oisin, and some other Irish Mythology/Legends, but not in Gaelic. <p>It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

Well how about it did Elrond look like a vampire?<P>and confess your mispronunciations<P>and let us kow how to abbreviate your name <P>and...<P>well for my only movie post I scored a record 4 pages. If only my 'serious' posts got as much attention <p>[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

No, I do not think Elrond looked anything like a vampire, and I did not think Arwen was a pixievixen and I do not think that the movie was some awful terrible travisty (my word, those posts in January 2001 sure were pessimistic, weren't they?)<P>I pronounced Celeborn "Seleborn" the first time I read the book, but then I read the pronounciation guide and have no trouble now. In fact, when my mother read the book, I *made* her read it out loud to me (this was because she could not stay awake while reading it to herself. I would catch her sitting over it sleeping...tsk tsk tsk). Anyway, I sat there correcting her every time she misprounounced something. <P>And the only way you can abbreviate my name without incurring my wrath is to leave off the 18 and just call me Diamond.

Hey, <BR>im probobly WAY behind but...<BR>I think it is Tol-key-en<BR>later