I can't believe you think I have a strategy for Taters to Taters. I think I'm being rather honest, as evidenced by the round in which I had no entry whatsoever. ;)

"Rather honest"? ;) :p

Sorry- I should've said I'm "insanely honest" I guess...

Of course you are, O One Who Doth Outhine The Sun. :D

MCR get your Round 5 winner in as soon as you can, thanks. As it is though, we'll just proceed...

Tally

the phantom - 2 (Honest, Insane)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)

----

ROUND 6

the phantom pick the most extraordinary from this list. :)

Gondolin
The Void
Lembas
Music of the Ainur
Isildur
Girdle of Melian
Arwen
The Green Dragon
Mithril
Thuringwethil


----

ROUND 7

Green tater: Violent (furious, vicious, destructive)
Judge: Lottie

(And is it just me or could many of the cuddly options also pass for violent? I suppose those two things aren't mutually exclusive)

See, if there was a red tater with my name on it, you could use it to win both rounds. :Merisu: :smokin:

The Void and the Music make for pretty obvious picks. It's a toss-up choosing which between creation and nothingness is more extraordinary.

Edit: "More extraordinary"? Isn't that just like saying "more unique"? :D

Alqualonde
Mumakil
The Wacher in the Water
Gimli
Smaug
Orome
Goblin-town
Morgoth
Fellbeast
The One Ring
Celeborn

Out of all of these, there aren't any that I would consider cuddly. So, I shall judge according to the funniest. And the winner is *drumroll*:

MORGORTH!

Merci. And the holder of Morgoth was...

Menel

(I first saw the PM at night...laughed so hard it drew shifty eyes looks from others. And opened up the PM again in the morning, just to laugh again. A cuddly Morgoth. :D

See? MCR was perfectly safe choosing one of those I had set apart.

And apparently it's my turn now...

EXTRAORDINARY

Gondolin- pretty awesome city
The Void- one-of-a-kind and unfathomable
Lembas- weight loss would be no problem
Music of the Ainur- created the world, and would've sounded spectacular
Isildur- not your ordinary King
Girdle of Melian- a magical web of trickery would be very cool
Arwen- I'd love to see Luthien 2.0
The Green Dragon- where funny folks say funny things
Mithril- adamantium's cousin
Thuringwethil- vampires in Middle-Earth

So, should I stay quiet and let everyone fight and promote, or should I say which cards have tickled my fancy and then let people fight and promote?

Haha Boro, should you get a prize for half-guessing the winner? :D

You had me pinned.

Existence or non-existence, thats the problem. A void is a mystery, but being maybe more so: why is there something rather than nothing?

Okay, let's go ahead and narrow things and see who cares to have a say.

NO

Gondolin- A super city, but not what I'm looking for.
Lembas- A cool food, but not what I'm looking for.
Isildur- An important fellow, but not what I'm looking for.
The Green Dragon- A nice gathering place, but not what I'm looking for.
Girdle of Melian- A handy defense, but not what I'm looking for.
Arwen- A great lady, but not Kate Beckin- I mean not what I'm looking for.

CONTENDERS

The Void- Certainly one-of-a-kind, and beyond the norm.
Mithril- I so wish Mithril weapons were real, and that I had one.
Thuringwethil- What would Twilight be if Tolkien had written it?
Music of the Ainur- For a music lover, hearing this would be the ultimate dream.

Ew. Don't besmirch the name of Tolkien like that.

Your response to something written by Tolkien would be "ew"?

Oh ye of little faith.

But in the meantime, it seems that no one is interested in swaying me towards one answer or the other. How disappointing...

No, that's my response to anything Twilight.

Pick something that starts with an E. :D

Agreed. Where is the massive bribing? :D

Perhaps if I named a starting price it would jump-start things?

There's the obvious "pick-mine-and-I-pick-yours" bribe, but I worry that would undermine the spirit of the game.

How about a tribute signature? As an example, Nog is currently receiving tribute in my signature. If you would agree to, say, three days of "Phantom is my hero!" that may tip the scales.
Nice to know I can still spot a Wolf in Ordo's clothing.

announcement
 

Our lovely Boro will not have internet access today, so there will be no new round until tomorrow. Phantom can still pick a winner, of course (and by pick a winner I mean pick my card).

Well then- more time for people to weigh the final four options.

It would be only decent for me to carry a sig with "the phantom is my hero" for a few days. So you should just pick mine - even if I'm not allowed to tell you which it is you probably know it already. :)

Green tater: Extraordinary (distinguished, dignified, acclaimed)


Now the perennial question, I think, is whether something is extraordinary in a qualitative way aka. that there is nothing like it in principle, or whether it is "only" extraordinary quantitatively aka. there are things like it, but it is just a noch more of whatever it is.

Thinking of that I would say that the Void and the Music of the Ainur are on a class of their own with "extraordinariness".

Now some might think the Girdle of Melian could give them some competition. I mean it's not the nature of forests to lose you as such. If you get lost in a normal forest it is you who are stupid (or bad in orienteering), but the forest doesn't actively make you lose your direction. But... and the obvious counterargument to Melian's Girdle would be that also other forests in the ME seem to be both able and willing to do just that. So the Girdle of Melian maybe was extraordinary in being better in that than the Old Forest, The Fangorn, the Mirkwood, but it was only better at doing a thing others did too.

Like Lembas is better keeping hunger away than other foods which also keep hunger at bay - or Mithril that protects you more with lesser weight and brighter shine than other mail but still does the same thing... and you can see where the argument goes from here if we consider Thuringwethil, Isildur, Arwen, Gondolin or the Green Dragon... although with the latter five you could actually make an argument there were better examples than those named in their specific doings... Like Luthien giving nice competition to Arwen, Prancing Pony competing the Green Dragon, Armenelos competing Gondolin in grandeur or Menegroth in secrecy, Carcaroth competing with Thuringwethil, any great hero of old "out-heroing" Isildur...

Many of those points sure are open to argument. But that's exactly the point: the fact that you can argue whether Aragorn was a more distinguished or acclaimed hero than Isildur, or whether one should consider Beren as still more extraordinary, proves the point them being not extraordinary in quality but only in quantity.

How could one argue the relative extraordinariness of "being itself" or "not-being" in regards to something else, like a teapot, Minas Tirith or Helcaraxë? :)

No way. You don't compare "coming-in-to-being" or "existing" or "non-existence" or "void" with anything. Like Immanuel Kant said: existence is not a predicate you can attribute to something, but it is the condition via which some thing can have an attribute in the fiorst place: if something doesn't exist it can't be blue, white, mushy or lovable... existence comes first, then qualities an existant being can have. like heroism, being able to delay hunger, protecting you from blades or arrows, making you lost etc.

But you can possibly at some level compare existence and non-existence against each other as the primordial issues...

Most religions start with the obvious state of nothingness (like in Judaism, Christianity and Islam) often described as a void (fex. in Scandinavian and Babylonian mythologies). Then comes the extraordinary thing: creation!

And the thing is quite clear in our everyday speech as well: we talk of the "miracle of birth" and the "naturalness of death" ("nothing in this life can be trusted but taxes and death" :rolleyes:).

So: why is there something rather than nothing? That is the extraordinary thing!

Good arguments, Nog, about whether things are comparable or not. Of course if one chose to interpret "extraordinary" in a different way it would undermine everything. If we say it means "beyond ordinary" then the object must have an ordinary reference point and then surpass. But if we say "uncommon" then perhaps that which has no comparable moves to the forefront.

And honestly I like the second version, and as you can see with those I ruled out that is what I've been going with. And with that in mind...

Mithril is now out, as it is essentially super-silver. As cool as it is, it doesn't quite stand alone as much as I want it to.

I disagree with Thuringwethil being compared to Carcharoth however, as he is a Werewolf and she a vampire. Ever since encountering Thuringwethil for the first time all those years ago, I craved to learn more about her. I wished for her to be featured more prominently in a story. What did she look like? Did she shape-shift? Could she create more like her? What were her other duties and powers? I see her standing rather alone in Tolkien's works.

And yes indeed- the Void and the Music belong. I can tell you that my instinct is to favor something over nothing, particularly with music involved. But I'll leave this just a bit longer to see if anyone else wishes to hop in with something.

You do like Immanuel Kant, don't you Nog? :cool:

I just want to point out that things like "Void" and "Ainulindale" can also be quantitative (if i got your definition right), in the sense that there is lots of music but none as grand as Ainulindale, or spaces with little in them but the Void is the most empty of all of them. You can quantify such things not only by their innate qualities but by an event or role they play or etc. There is an infinite number of categories you can look at. You can also say that things existed for a long time, but the Void is the oldest still - which also gives it a quantitative "extraordinariness".




Personally, I'm not enthralled with the people/living beings, because there's too much to argue about regarding who is greater/stronger/taller/etc. So out go Arwen, Isildur, and Thuringwethil. Then, despite its importance to the story and unique quality, I'm not a big fan of Melian's Girdle. It just doesn't seem to do it. Neither does the Void or Gondolin. Just not the right ring, ya know. I think Lembas and Mithril can have a silly side to them as well as the radical reasoning of why they are extraordinary, so they would be pretty high on my list. Music of the Ainur is quite fitting by definition, and it resonates with me, so had I been the judge I would have considered it. And the Green Dragon is comically true, since, as Mr. Sandyman was quick to notice, "there is only one Dragon in Bywater, and that's Green".


So, for my money, mithril, lembas, Music of the Ainur, and Green Dragon are worth consideration.

Well, he's not exactly my favourite philosopher but I do agree him being one of the sharpest minds there ever has been... and he has good points on certain areas - like the one in my sig and what I quoted there from his argument against the ontological proof of God's existence against St. Thomas Aquinas (as a North-European protestant he thought the thing with God was "belief" and not "knowledge" - that the point of religion was to believe in something that can't be known instead of trying to prove something that was beyond proof).

Haha. That's a nice one! But The Music of the Ainur still was the act of creation - of bringing being into existence instead of letting the Void, the non-being rule supreme. It is said it was brought by means of music - but surely you can't compare the Music of the Ainur to any music we can hear or play. From the Pythagoreans onwards (about 2600 years) the latest we have "known" that the "music of the spheres", as the echoes in the physical univedrse of that creating music were called those days, was not something any human being could hear or understand.To say it is music is rather a way of trying to paraphrase something to human understanding that is by it's nature understandable: hah, creating being from nothing... pretty hard to go and figure what it is or means. :)

And what comes to the arguments between The Void and The Music of the Ainur there is one pretty tough one: The Void can't be extraordinary as it is - by definition - nothing. Well, one can't even say it "IS" something, even nothing (not to say it is extraordinary). Is that an argument for the Void to be the really extraordinary thing then? Nope. It's just contradiction in terms: that which is not can not be anything: honest, insane, deadly, neglected, cuddly... or extreaordinary.

Only that which is, which exists, can be something - and the Music of the Ainur is the very thing that caused existence to exist, the most extraordinary thing that made it possible for fex. itself to be such an extraordinary thing. :D

And if we humans have gotten anything right in our myths and religions, then it must be that non-existence is the primordial norm which was overcome by divine creation - which is the wonder, the miracle, the extraordinary thing.

I agree with what you say but still think the division between the two is both reasonable and defendable in this case... Like I said - when you have two things (or more) you compare between each other (with shared reference points) you mostly end up in arguments where one side is more or less as right as another. And basically yes, this whole game is partly about just that: how you compare things trying to find a reference between some of the choices... and which reference points you think are noteworthy in any individual case. But on this round we have two pretty extraordinary things in play, namely nothnigness and the coming forth of being from nothingness. And those two just surpass any other comparison as they are the basis from which any comparisons can be made in the first case... :cool:

It doesn't actually matter whether you like or dislike the comparison. The point is that a comparison can be made: which was the most extraordinary servant of evil? Or should we bring Ungoliant to the game, or Gothmog... Or if we want to go to a more specific choice: which one was the more extraordinary servant of Sauron: Draugluin, Thuringwethil ot the Witch King? I mean it is possible to find a common ground for these comparisons even if some are easier or more natural than others.

But you just can't compare existence (or the lack of it) to any existant (or non-existant) thing because existence (or non-existence) are the conditions by which you can make a comparison in the first place... :smokin:

And thus, especially while speaking of extraordinariness, the two fight in the class of their own.

Who would have thought that a Taters to Taters game would turn into a philosophical discussion about coming into being? :D


And now I will nitpick Nog's post, not because it's faulty reasoning (it's solid and everything) but because I just disagree with it. :P


Fair enough. Let's scratch the "music" category from the list of possible ones. How about the greatest creation that ever was? Or, if I go to the more general categories, the greatest event? The most important event?

My point is that even something that seems like it's one-of-a-kind can be classified as some sort of category that has other examples. To take a more eathly example - Thuringwethil. She's the only giant vampire bat mentioned in the legendarium, unless I have a hole in my skull and memory is leaking out. So she is unique in that sense. But she's also a part of the animal category, the evil creature category, the unknown origin being category, etc. So there's always a was to quantify it if you're willing to widen the category enough. On the opposite side, you can make something unique by narrowing the catagory down. Arwen could be considered one of many because there are many beautiful Elves, and we know she's competing with Luthien and Galadriel in the beauty contest. But she can also be unique if we narrow it down from "beautiful Elf maidens" to "daughters of Elrond", for example.

Something much less fesh-and-bone, like the Music of Ainur, is a more... "picky" matter, but as long as you're willing to place it into certain categories it's still quantifiable and comparable.

Well, I want to agrue here because I like arguing. Firstly, the Void can still be more "understandable" of a concept because it indeed IS something - it's the opposite of something (haha, very funny, go ahead roll your eyes :)). But really, if Ea is something and you know there's NOTHING on the outside (a NOTHING that's called the Void), then that NOTHING can be defined as the emptiness that's not Ea, that surrounds Ea, that is outside of Ea, etc.

Secondly, even without considering the argument that it is something, the Void is still somewhere. It's where Eru lives. It's where Morgoth lives. It's where you come to if you go through the Doors of Night. So it's a place, even if not quite a natural one.

Last, but not least, the Void of Tolkien's work might not be as empty as it seems, since there are Ainu dwelling there. Also, it's not what we might imagine as being a Void, since in The Sil Morgoth is said to have gone far in search for the Flame Imperishable. So there's a concept of distance, and of going far, and therefore the opposite - close, so it's not a mind-boggling concept we can't even fathom. I've been wondering for a time how can a Void be so unvoid of things, but all the answer I got was the same as to the question who is Tom Bombadil - it just is that way.



I suppose it all depends on how you view the world / what you believe it is. If my view has a different brick at the very foundation compared to your view, the whole structures cannot be the same, even though both could be right...or both could be wrong. Who knows?

I won't go farther into this, but I must say, I think this debate is my favourite part of the game so far, as weird as it sounds.



Quick! Post something silly before this thread gets moved to Books!!! :-D


Edit: xed with Nog. I see we agree about the earthly beings, but we still stand on different ground about existence. Well, how about the mostextraordinary event? Or most extraordinary concept? :Merisu:

Time is ticking, so perhaps I'll narrow it to two.

When someone is through, they are cast into the void. But where is the void cast? *chuckle*

As I said, the somethings have got my fancy, so it is between-

Music of the Ainur
Thuringwethil

I don't know if these selections were done in the spirit of "oh well" or not, but I'd like to think they were carefully chosen by people that know me decently well in this respect. As someone that has performed music on a weekly basis since I was a child (and I listen to music far more often than that), the Music of the Ainur is especially alluring. But so is Thuringwethil, who is definitely one of my Tolkien favorites (perhaps moreso since so little is known of her).

I'm already leaning one direction, but if multiple people put forth passionate pleas it's possible I'll change my tune.

Yes. That was a pun.

My apologies, I was in the process of moving to new place today and didn't have internet connected yet.

Business as usual tomorrow. So tp, have the winner chosen by Noon.

And anyone who hasn't sent in round 7 do so as well.

Of those two, I would definitely choose the Music of the Ainur.

Ditto.

Quite unexpectedly, I agree with both Menel and Galadriel. :)

I mean I like Thuringwethil, no question about that. She is quite cool - even if I'm not otherwise that much into this vampire-mania of the recent years. And yes you could argue that she is at least one of a kind as there seems to be no other vampires in Arda (like there were other werewolves, balrogs, great spiders etc.). But I'd still go for the stupendous extraordinariness of the Music of the Ainur just because it is such... well, an extraordinary thing. :cool:


Haha! Anything can turn into that with ready and willing participants...
To me it doesn't sound weird at all. But I agree it is fun. Fun big time.

PS. G55: I did enjoy your counter-arguments and will possibly come back to them if I have time. But just now my hands are quite full...

Well, since people seem to be coming down on the side of the pick I've wanted to go with from the start, I may as well end the waiting...

++Music of the Ainur

It's always been a goal of mine that, before I die, I write and record my version of the Music of the Ainur. I've been oh so slowly thinking up themes for a decade or so and plan to continue doing so for many more, as I see it as something not to be churned out but worthy of a careful approach. Personally I think that every music-loving Tolkienphile has some version of it in his or her head and ought to produce it at some point in life.

I knew you weren't the most modest person around but... :)

On the other hand it might be a nice topic for a thread to come up with different ideas what the Music of the Ainur could or should have sounded like - with actual pieces of music they had in the best of cases made themselves in a way or another.

Following one another our sigs are just too much. :D

Especially having three... erm... five of them in a row... :D

Oh you two! :D

Usually it's the opposite way, though - something serious turns silly.

No need, unless you really want to. :) Our debate was time well wasted. :D

And Nogrod gets on the board

Tally

the phantom - 2 (Honest, Insane)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)
Nogrod - 1 (Extraordinary)

----

ROUND 7

Lottie, the violent red taters are:

Ungoliant
Menegroth
Tulkas
Battle of Pelennor Fields
Battle of Bywater
Eol
Ar-Pharazon
Beorn
Tar-Minastir
Gorgoroth

ROUND 8

Green tater: Peaceful (serene, restful, calm)
Judge: Menel

What a coincidence to have these two green taters right after each other! :D