Why? Given the strategy we are about to adopt, we can do as much harm as good with that (except for delivering information, of course). Plus, the extra votes can have consequences the living seem to be unaware of. They don't know who has the extra vote, so they can't take it into account when they count the votes. We might cause them to have more double lynches, which I think is something we definitely don't want especially after yesterDay. Think outside the box.

(Gosh, now I know how the phantom must feel like all the time. And now I'm appreciating Rikae and Mac's genius even more, everything in this game seems to be a double-edged sword.)


edit: xed with Agan

Ah I feel so much like picking a fight with Agan because she's playing with such double standards but then again I think I know better than to use my energy attacking someone I know is innocent.

Anyhow, please reread what you just posted, and think whether you make sense:
You had the same idea yet the fact that I came up with it makes me seem suspicious?

Or we might prevent double lynches.

I toyed with the idea but decided against it because it would do more harm than good. You suggested it. That's the difference between us.

Rikae & Mac: I'm going to laugh so hard if you made every member of Clan Nogrod a cobbler! :D

That's true, but given that everybody in the village except for the three cobblers (ergo a vast majority) works in order to prevent them, it's more likely we f it up for them than that we save the day. Call me a pessimist, but I think you could even prove that mathematically.

Yes, because I'm still not convinced it'd do more harm than good. And I wanted to throw it for you to think about instead of considering all the points inside my heads. Generally you see better with more eyes and especially as this thread mostly has people I trust (you, Shasta, Fea) talking actively, I couldn't see any harm in thinking aloud. So no need to trash me for it.


edit: xed with Agan

If you are only throwing an idea out there without actually suggesting it, you usually don't portray it in a nearly flawless light when there are both pros and cons to it.

I pointed out a flaw in your logic but it wasn't a personal attack.

I didn't portray it in a nearly flawless light and besides, the flaws should be obvious and they've been mentioned on this thread several times.

No you didn't. It's a completely different thing to say "hey mate, there's a flaw in your logic" than "faulty logic! I smells evil!" and they provoke completely different reactions in the people whose logic you criticise. You can try experimenting with that.

And even though I know there'll be more jungle knives and pole axes for this, I really still don't see what's so utterly bad about my plan. Yes, it has vices. But so does the current plan. But it's not like I can take my plan through alone or that you need my cooperation for anything, so no need to get aggressive about it.


On a totally different issue, we're going to have rather tricky time toMorrow (assuming we stick with the original plan) because we still don't know which mode of communication the village is expecting of us, but we still have plenty time to think about that.

And then I should still vote toDay. I'd still see Nessa's role revealed as being far more useful than mine being revealed, but if you insist on sticking to the original plan, I guess there's not much I can do. Of course I've never gone Nilp before, which might be an interesting experience.

Being dead is more frustrating than I ever expected it to be and we're all stuck here until the end of the game... envy those blasted mortals. ;)

Just think of the endgame when almost everyone is here. :)



If I may add my two cents... (ignore them if you wish).

Giving an extravote on the next Day (fex.) is a tricky thing * especially because of the simultaneous timing of the ending of the votes - and because we have here quite many people who are not able to hang there at the DL.

Just thinking how we could try to affect the outcome of the vote there in the best possible way would be:
a) preventing a double-lynch
b) preventing a lynch of someone who we consider innocent
c) helping to lynch someone we think is a baddie

Now if we all from the house of Finwë vote like six hours before the DL we have no way of saying what is the situation at the DL and how our extravote will affect the situation there.

Thus I suggest that me, Lommy and Agan refrain from voting anyone for the extravote and let Shasta & Fea & Mänwe do it when they know better than us being able to hang there at the DL.

That doesn't mean that we Finns should not let the Americans to know our ideas of who is good and who is bad (and you can ignore my suggestions if you think that wise) - and that you there at the DL should pay heed also to our views.

This plan isn't risk-free either. If there is a last minute madness there in the game thread it is possible even clearly intended vote from here might turn against our wishes with some last second vote down there.


But adopting that kind of scheme of course depends on how important we think following Agan's plan would be. If they are thinking that that's what we're going to do, then it may be we have to stick with it. But if enough many people think -and say it out loud - that it is a bad idea (which I think it is), then we might consider trying to really affect the outcome of the lynching for good and not only send possibly redundant info with the risk of going against the three principles I just expressed up there.

And of course there could be a way to try and find a middle-ground solution. Was it that looking from the list of players even is good and uneven is bad (or the other way around), well anyway. That would leave us half of the people to be picked as those who get the extravotes - so especially in a race where there are fex. two leading candidates those doing the voting there at the DL might be able to find one from the list we can use who has voted the person we wish to get lynched.

* When the number of people here doubles we can probably not longer co-ordinate our votes but this will turn more openly into a playing-ground where opportunism and tactics rule. But at least now we have a chance to try and co-ordinate things.

As I see it, suspicion doesn't equal a personal attack.

As a known innocent, I am not going to refrain from voting, nor do I think we can change our plans at this stage. Sorry to be a dictator on this issue, but anybody with the village's best interests in mind should not suggest sowing confusion among the living.

I think this should tell us enough about her role... :rolleyes:

No, it's from past WW games. There's only three from this game and two only ask if I'm around! ;) Besides it's not my role anymore. :(

Okay. I'll do one more of these (this seems to be "the thread of repetiton") as I see Agan making a totally dismissive case. And I hope at least you Agan read this. You others might do well to do it as well though.

I've had hard times to go back to the thread to read it closely for D2 from pure embarrassment. And I actually mean it. But I did go there to check yesterday about the order of the revelations as I wasn't myself sure how it went. And I found you saying you two were lovers and then me stating you were Beren.

I went there back again now (oh, the pain...) and yes I agree, you did have that line after the love poem (which I actually remember you did) where you congrated the wolves for killing Lúthien. I should have noticed that yesterday. And the odd part is that I have no way of explaining why I didn't, even if I was looking for which one of us first said and what (maybe it was because getting to that post I recognized the poem and just thought: "okay, here's the post she reveals she was Shasta's lover"?).

Then again, I only realised a moment ago - looking back to this thread that Mac actually ended the "narration" for this Night to begin, with: Did you notice that? Well, I didn't, except an hour ago. I know this is no proof to any direction about me being the seer or that people may lose important lines from the bottom of a message when they read fast. But I hope you think of the possibility of those two things is not totally improbable.


I think I already said that getting a lover as the first dream was the worst possible one to have. I did think of leaving something in a code of some sorts about you being Beren and not just an innocent but it felt pretty hard - and dangerous. Actually, knowing that if you got killed then someone else would die as well, I was strongly considering leaving no hints at all on D1.

But thinking of the totally freaked out way this game would work I decided still to leave something (hence my putting you Agan as the only one in the inocent tally) to show on D6 or something. Later on D1 I felt the need to add that coded "I'm the seer" message followed with the sentence stating that I'm positive about your innocence. And I was afraid even that was too much to say.

It is not difficult, in away, if you can be proven right afterwards or if you have any other dream than lovers who both are goodies. One just doesn't want to make that.

If you go back to your post where you revealed you were Shasta's lover, you can see I change my play on you immediately. Before that when you suspected me I said something along the lines "are you trying to make me suspect you, no deal done" - trying to let you understand I'm not going to go for you for a reason. But after that I started sying I was wondering whether I had read you wrong etc. detaching myself from any real knowledge on your role to save my seership.

But what happened: led by your example I started gathering a tremendous amount of suspicion (and at that time I hadn't been playing that stupidly or abrasively) and as the clock ticked on in to the wee hours I started realising you guys were going to lynch me and that the village was losing their seer - and with the aid of tiredness, panic and a few glasses of wine too much the disaster was wowen.

It's clear I was not in any conscious state of mind on the last hour. If you wish to check, see the first posts I made here. Okay, please don't (I haven't have the nerve to reread them ever since), but if you have to... Well, if it takes that to believe me and get our act straight here, then go and read them.

Well, I am. Sadly so. Repeat: Well, I am. Sadly so.

After being lynched as the seer I had two options: to give up or try to fight for it. I have kind of taken the middle route here s to begin with. If I think there's even a minute chance someone would listen to me, I'd do my best in here but if I will be totally ignored with a majority decision, then who cares?

We're still hanging around that delicate balance. But as long as people say "don't listen to him" I find it hard to really delve into the living-thread and start working for hours to find the culprits. From what I know of myself though, I'll probably stand up and start really fighting for the village in the end, whatever you say of it.

But getting into that heavily involved mood isn't exactly helped with comments which say that: "I don't care how good his arguments are, he's lying blatantly!" :rolleyes:

Nope. I'll call a cobbler a cobbler and a wolf a wolf - and they will heavily disagree. The ordinary innocents will know what I'm doing though.

There's no way to say which roles are coming here, so there's no way in telling how effective that will be.

I'd be ready to take a challenge of that kind any time and can promise you 100% right answer. But with the illogical hunter (kills whoever is her/his target) it's hard to see the evidence of that.

You disregard my views on your own peril, I must say. Don't tell me afterwards I didn't say that.

But I'll promise to come up with this issue only when I think I need to do that...

Gah. If no one else is going to give any credit to an alternative plan than the probable cobbler and believed by nodoby anyway Mr Nogrod, I might as well leave it be at least for today. It's getting late.

++Thinlómien

First ever time nilping myself! Yay!

But like I said, I doubt anyone except the phantom will really be surprised to find out I'm innocent.


edit: xed with Nog

Oh and just saying don't complain to me if Nessa turns out to be a wolf (which I think rather likely) or if we cause a double lynch.

You should hold those two issues separate though.

The fact that we Finns will probably not be online at the DL toMorrow and how to react to that is a different thing from whether we should stick to the plan talked in the game-thread yeasterDay.

If you just vote for someone you trust now (well 24 hours fom now), you have no idea whether that vote decides a doublelynch or the death of your other "most innocent" player!


How about we decided that no one else votes for the extravote but Shasta whom we know is a goodie and (hopefully) can be around at the DL - trying to fit his vote with both the "system of evens and unevens" and doing his best to do what we - well you as you don't trust me - want him to.

I can tell you Mänwe is an ordinary innocent as well but as you can't be secure about it, then let's say Shasta only votes.

If you Agan will be ther at the DL, then go on and vote as I think no one will have anything against it. But if you wish to vote like six hours earlier - well that's bad thinking while we have a chance to co-operate.

There's one additional positive thing in that kind of a deal as well: if Fea goes to vote for someone else creating confusion and possibly with the coin-toss a result we didn't want to, we know she's cobbler (I mean looking at the fitting role-pickings; when tp is a cobbler it wouldn't be far fetched to think Fea is one as well :rolleyes:) - which should guarantee us an extravote given only by a known innocent as Fea wouldn't try that if she knew we would distrust her after that.

But that would mean that everyone here would need to tell Shasta what they feel about people to help Shasta make a good choice.

Also, let's not be too hasty with any dictatorial rulings that would have to be settled roght now as we have almost 29 hours time to giving that extra-vote.

Maybe the people in the game thread decide it's not a good idea and we should acknowlede that then.

So we should check the game thread toMorrow and decide on the proceedings then?

I'm checking her toNight.

You may not trust me yet. But I hope you'll do, hopefully sooner than later.

So I'm trusting now our decision for toNight is Lommy?

Okay, adding my vote to it.

++ Lommy


So I'm dreaming of Nessa toNight.

Ah, because I've shown so many signs of being a cobbler, up to and including consistent behavior, insistence that nobody false reveal, insistence that we don't mess with the village's understanding of our communication system, rational votes, expressions of concern over the rationality of certain plans... Clearly my role in this game is to sow confusion, to revel in chaos, to otherwise be mean, naughty, and nasty.

As someone who has supported Not Being Evil from the very beginning of this game, I daresay you have nothing to fear of me swooping in to change my vote at the last minute.

Also, Seer, if you're that concerned I'm secretly a cobbler, and just doing a really awesome job of convincing everybody that I'm squeaky clean, why not just dream of me? Why not just prove to yourself, if nobody else, that I'm sneaky?

Ah, because you have the excuse of dreaming of Nessa. My bad.

But no, I shall not bait you. Dream away of Nessa, as that was the general plan. Switching to me now would be foolish when instead you can just try to sow distrust where there is none...

Going to sleep...
 

I think I've mentioned that I have a nasty cold? I was going to try to ignore it, but due to how insistent it got, I stopped being able to ignore it due to being curled up in a ball on the bathroom floor with a wad of tissues, trying to stop sneezing long enough to breathe.

So I took Nyquil. Which is about to combine with my other medications and knock me out. Not in a dangerous way, just in a way that means I will absolutely not be awake until tomorrow.

So here's hoping nobody needs me until I wake up again.

Have fun, kids. Celebrate being able to breathe through your noses. You tend to forget how nice that is...

Well, it was mainly the idea that as the few roles I know now seem to be so like too fitting - and as I know tp is a cobbler... :rolleyes:

But it was not that much serious. Maybe the way you went being best friends with Agan is looking a bit opportunistic (the easy trust in a game is looking weird; but as such it would have not been much), but anyway. With saying exactly that, I was kind of hoping to discourage you from doing that last second change. I mean whatever your role, nice to be certain now that you won't do it. Had I not raised that discussion up - and if you were a cobbler - you could have played tricks there. Now you probably don't.

Playing it safe.

As I said, I don't know if we won anything here, but it's possible we did. And were you the cobbler we might have lost something.


I was actually wavering between Nessa, you and Lommy. I mean I get the exact roles and not only this not-a-wolf / wolf stuff. And I was curious.

But in the end I decided that I had not that much on thinking either of you as a cobbler and the chance of getting a wolf was heavier on the scales - so I picked Nessa.

And actually got the answer just a moment ago.



Nessa is an ordinary innocent.



PS. And all that reaction from Fea when I only said what she quoted there in #136? That wasn't anything too serious, just plain stating what we would know if... And said by a person everyone "knows" is not the seer but a cobbler?

If you were so sure that I'm the cobbler - and trusted that everyone esle trusted that as well, why bother? :smokin:

Just for clarification, without the intent to say anything about Nogrod's role: That statement was generic. There are no clues in the narrations except the obvious ones.

The wolves consulted with Glorfindel and found the current occupancy of the Halls of Mandos entirely satisfactory.

Also, be informed that Lommy is... not a wolf.


The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwarin538
Legate
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel


The dead:

Rikae (mod)
Macalaure (co-mod)
Mänwe (not a wolf)
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir (Beren)
Shastanis Althreduin (Lúthien)
Thinlómien (not a wolf)
Nessa Telrunya


It is now Day 4. Whom will the dead endow with twice the power to choose their next fellow?

HAH. Take that, wolves, and way to go Glorfindel! :D

Also this is me being contrary, but I don't like the living going in the assumption that we're going to do everything they tell us to like good little drones. :rolleyes:

I said we can't promise to do everything if we don't have a way to comment on it. Thus far I have no problem with complying to their wishes, though.

I like Mith a lot, Boro a lot more than when I voted for him (meaning I wouldn't try to lynch him now even if I still don't entirely trust him), and I vehemently dislike phantom. EVIL. MISLEADING. FALSE.

Class starts, more from me later.

Not a wolf is odds...

Glirdan
elronds_daughter
Loslote
Legate
the phantom
Mithalwen

They are odds. I'm not willing to give an extra vote to Glirdan or phantom.

Of this bunch, I'd prefer to give it to Mith.

But I basically feel mentally backwards from how I have felt, so I don't trust any of my own judgment right now. Just woke up from 14 hours of sleep. Still feel completely awful and mentally hazy.

So unless I suddenly feel ten times better later on today, I'm going to abstain from voting. Either that or go with whoever Agan says to go with.

Because yeah, Noggles, I trust her more than anybody else in this game, because she thinks the way I think when I'm not ill, and I know for a fact she's not evil in this game.

So... so yeah. If she gives me orders today? I'll most likely follow them instead of thinking for myself.

Strike what I said. Evens. Not-wolf means evens.

I'm going back to sleep.

Naturally, the Day has been extended here, as on the living thread.

This is what I wrote before the forum went down
 

A Little Green
Nerwen
wilwarin538
satansaloser2005
Boromir88
Anguirel

I believe these are our options for the double vote. I think everyone is free to choose whom they wish as long as one of them gets it. Personally I am not going to vote for Greenie (suspicious of her), Nerwen (just to be on the safe side) or Angu (because I have no idea what he's up to even though I liked his comments on Lottie, Glirdy & ed).

I think this sounds very innocent. A baddie could have just gone along with phantom's plan, saying 'Yeah that's probably worth trying!' Even more so because his primary choice would have been Nessa whose role we don't know (instead of non-wolf Lommy).

And dies and brings back as little information as possible.

Bollocks. I don't believe that for a second.

It isn't? If you debate it tomorrow, then whom do we check tonight?

It occurs to me that the phantom has previously employed a cobbler impersonation tactic as a gifted, though (wilwa's Fairytale game, remember Fea?). That time he was kind of more obvious, though - now he's just suggesting flawed plans while saying he isn't actually suggesting them (instead he's making people waste their time pointing out the flaws in them).

Hahaha! :D

It was this (and Boro's previous post) that made me feel better about him. Of course things might not be as simple as they seem, but a baddie gains little by saying this.

I like this.

:D

Speaking of ed - her two previous games she's been very undecided, not really having opinions on people. This got her suspected last time, at least by me. She seems to have changed her style a great deal... I wonder if it's just because she has more experience now, or if she has fellows helping her out. Remember also the self-conscious first post after the first wolf-kill.

Okay the Downs went down just when I was going to post this. Comments on what's been going on here, then.

I suppose there's no chance you would've been, say... the seer?
(Naturally assuming the mods think it's okay she says it.)

I still don't believe Nog. He looks better here than he did in the living thread (which doesn't mean much, though), but it's the living thread that really matters. However I'm not going to keep arguing with him unless I see a reason to because that serves no purpose.

We wouldn't know that even if there was no plan. If we're afraid of influencing the lynch, no one should vote at all.

Problems. There's no way we can be sure someone is not a cobbler, and if we agree only one person votes, the cobblers can easily mess it up. Plus what happens if Shasta isn't around at the deadline like happened on my last day with the living?

Aww get well soon. *nuzzles*

Now, let me think about the double voting thing.
The wolves know Lommy was not one, therefore they know either Green, Nerwen, wilwa, sally, Boro or Angu is getting the extra vote. They are probably looking at whom most people (especially I) suspected or found innocent, and it's possible they're weighing their vote with that in mind. Therefore it might be good to give it to someone unexpected... But while I don't think us Finns (well, Nog excluded ;)) should refrain from voting just because we're most likely not around at the deadline, it might usually be a good idea to spread the votes and leave it up to our American friends to decide who gets it. On the other hand, I'm uncomfortable with this because we have no idea how many cobblers we have here.

Hahaha love this! :D

Hmm. Actually the fact that Boro suggested the living vote on whom we check doesn't tell us anything about him. If Nessa is a wolf, there's a chance we check somebody else - or if we don't, it makes him look better. If she's innocent, there's a chance we don't check a lynched wolf (yet). But then, he wasn't actively trying to stir up discussion, he just said they should do it... Grr I hate his tricksiness!

Who do you think was attacked last night? I'm tempted to say Mith because no one really suspects her and she came up with some very good ideas...

Hm, all these sending-messages-to-the-living plots seem to have killed my dead thread. Perhaps I should throw a wrench in the works, and stop revealing who gets the double votes at all?

That's... mean... :(

I still don't see how the Dead are going to be able to tell the Living their answers. The Living can't look in the Dead thread and the Dead can't post in the Game thread. PMing is only aloud through certain roles...

Anyone want to tell me what I am missing?

But you have nothing to talk about anymore! Kind of defeats the purpose of having a thread at all.

We do talk! We just talk about how to convey our messages. ;)

But do as you will, Rikae - you're the moddess, it's your decision and no one's going to hold a grudge whatever you decide. :)


PS. I'm here. I have yet to read the live thread.

Ha, we seem to be popular. :D

PS. Dear moddess, almost a half of our dead population are Finnish. So it might be quiet from 2am to 9pm our time when we are sleeping/at school/working/seeing friends. We Finns are rather nocturnal, so we get active around this time. Agan is seeing her granny (I think?), Nog has choir practice on Wednesday evenings and I just returned from the cinema (saw King's Speech and I can definitely recommend that btw). Plus, out of the dead, BG didn't post at all when alive and Nessa hasn't posted anything after her death at all. So I'm not sure it'd be much noisier right now if we had more variable topics to talk about... This is all not to convince you to change the game rules if you think it would improve the dynamics, but merely make you less frustrated about our sorry silence.

PPS. Ha! I should start writing speeches. ;)

Well, ok, I'll let you dead folk off the hook for now. ;)

Actually, I'm just worried that flaws in the game mechanics were spoiling people's fun, although, of course, they might be simultaneously helping (some of) you win. I hope you're right and things get livelier... oh well...

(Incidentally, the "people" and "you" above refer to all players living and dead. Sorry, people, no clues here!)

Phantom, Please shut up!

*joking* ;)

To answer Aganzir, it's ok for BG to say anything she likes about her past or present role, true or false.

EDIT: Of course the usual rules about quoting pm's also apply.

Gah, too tired to think about this anymore. I'm going to sleep. Sorry for the crappy participation toDay.

++Greenie

Seems like her solid, independent-minded self and can't really disagree with her suspicion of Sally. Don't trust Sallywolf or Bobbler a bit, and Nerwen and Angu not much more. Wilwa would've been my other option, but I think I can read Greenie better so I trsut my trust of her better, so to speak.

Aww but that's evil for two reasons: it was my plan, and at least I have also been talking about something else! :p

We vote to give an extra vote to one of the villagers. Because Lommy wasn't a wolf, our options today are Greenie, Nerwen, wilwa, sally, Boro, and Angu. Pick the one you find the most innocent-looking, or even better, the one I or Shasta tells you to!

That guy is seriously trying to butter me up with comments like this... I wonder if I should be worried!

(Italics replaced with underlining)
Nerwen's vote makes me very uneasy. It looks like she's offing a fellow. I know it serves little purpose, but I'm going to have a look at her.

There are a couple of groups I'm interested in.

Angu vs. Lottie, sally & ed
Boro vs. phantom
sally vs. Angu, Boro, Lottie

I wouldn't put it past Angu to blatantly bus his fellows (Lommy has told me so many times about getting Fenrised by him) but obviously he can't be fellows with all the three. The same with sally...
At least one of Boro and phantom is evil.

VOTES (we should definitely keep track on them and adjust the extra vote based on who seems to be getting lynched, if possible)
Angu - Lottie
Green - sally
Nerwen - ed

NIGHT CHECK VOTES
Boro - Nessa
sally - today's lynch
phantom - Nessa?

People who are around later - I'd like either Lottie, ed or phantom to die.