If it's helpful at all to point out: everyone involved in the game has now posted today.

EDIT: xed with Golly, and wondering why he's not voting for Legate? In fact, no one's stated suspicion of Legate yet, have they? I don't have any reason to either, but I still thought it odd.

Gollum, did you forget to mention Bere or am I just missing something?

I could vote for Aganzir as her style never really sits well with me.

I could vote for Lommy, Legate, Mac or Rikea, because I am against couples entering ww games.

I could vote for Menel, because I am against people who cannot hold their liquor. A proper drunk never gets sick of drinking. . .such a wannabe.

I won't vote for Gollum as he is the obvious day 1 lynch.

Unless something dramaticly happens the only other people I would consider are people like Brinn that I hold grudges against. . . Anyways I shall go have a pint or two before I vote. (The service here is too slow)

Sorry, I missed him. I'm not voting for him.

++Brinn

About Mac - my first thought was, yes, Ferny won't send Mac's name to the wraiths now, plus, whatever name the wraiths get, they won't know whether it is a suggested lynch and therefore a non-Ferny or Ferny himself, and therefore it won't be a whole lot of use to them.

Of course, if he's Ferny, it makes it easy for him to reveal himself.

I'm not saying he's innocent, but one thing I'd like to point out about Mac is that he does tend to go pretty far when speculating about what the baddies might do. I'll just say I'm not seeing that particular comment as proof of anything. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a particular plan behind it at all.

Just one thing now... there’s dinner being cooked.


I didn’t think that Bill’s desire to identify himself to the wraiths is a secret, but yeah, maybe he didn’t get the idea himself. :rolleyes:

Seeing the other comments on this, I think this line will haunt me for a while...

*orders Ibuprofen for everybody*

Bill giving his own name to the wraiths was a funny thing I came to think of when thinking about the two new roles. Funny because it’s a pretty dangerous thing for Bill to do. Of course, now that this idea has been treaded out, it has lost its danger. I shouldn’t have mentioned it at all, in hindsight, but I didn’t see these reactions coming.

Sorry I missed that post earlier. . . Basicly because you started the game of in charachter and made a lot of noice, that stuff is always labeled as "usual day 1 banter" and yet almost always result in a lynch.

It is actually quite interesting to see how people often start of with saying "this is probably an innocent trying to get the game started" and then end up voting for the person because they cannot build a real case against anyone.

People should know better!

Thanks!

And good-bye, everyone. Got work.

You are perfectly correct about it being a completely new perspective (although I am not sure if I have ever played even with a "normal" cursed villager).

Hmm. But whatever. As for Frodo revealing, just to clear it up a bit, I am thinking in various scenarios:

1.
DAY X
Frodo thinks he is going to be targeted at night. Under these circumstances, I think he should go and shout out: "I am the Ringbearer!" This way, the village will be aware, if anything happens.

2.
DAY Y, Y= something like Day 1 or so
There is no special reason why Frodo should be targeted (or so people think). Under these circumstances, I see no particular reason for him revealing.

***
However, there is also one thing to consider, and this is why I asked whether we would know when Frodo is turned (from the narration - like: "Now, you have 4 Wraiths."). Because if not, then it is actually even more dramatic and sinister if we know Frodo's identity, or if the Ranger knows - because, imagine it: Frodo reveals. Everybody knows. Ranger knows. Nazgul attack Frodo. Ranger protects Frodo. But the villagers won't know whether Frodo has been turned or not. The next day, Frodo goes all: "No, no, I am innocent, leave me alone!" But what now? The only one who knows the truth is the Ranger (and the Nazgul) - and he certainly should not reveal just because of that (on the contrary, I deem he should be careful in such situation. But not suddenly overly careful, of course. Just so that he does not get suspected by the Nazgul as being a Ranger). So what should the village do? Lynch Frodo? What if he is innocent. Then Ranger's save was in vein (okay, not really - the Nazgul lost one kill). Well... okay, maybe still this situation would be positive for the village anyway.

But all of that presumes a "good" Frodo - i.e. not one who would wish himself to be Wraithised. Hmph.

EDIT: x-ed since the Rikae I quoted

I think I'm Ghandi now.

Hmn - am I Ghandi? You have Ghandi on the list. I'm confused, and I'm him!

Okay there finally goes my idea of posting only once or twice on Day1... :rolleyes:

But I really thought of trying it after the last game which wasn't the first one where I got lynched basically because I spoke a lot and tried to actually say something and suspect people openly to get conversation going, and not only tried to survive. I was actually thinking of this one as a trial of just "surviving" -game, playing like Kath or Eomer or... But one's nature seems to be stronger than one's reason. :)

Anyway it's bad when the game only gets interesting at the hour you need to go to sleep.


But some notes on the recent discussions.

Interesting this mass-psychology is.

After reading Mac's first post I was feeling quite uneasy but after looking at it again I kind of fell back thinking I should not bother myself with it toDay too much and should just think of a best possible quess at whom we should lynch toDay. But after seeing that some others had also noticed the post and made some suspicions along the lines that fit my own I started thinking of Mac as actually suspicious again.

The same - albeit on the contrary fashion - goes for Aganzir whom I really thought was looking suspicious in the beginning; but after she made a few points herself and after a few people made points about her I feel much more comfortable with her.

Now why?

Because that's what we humans are, prone to agree with others, prone to agree with majority - at least in situations where we're not too certain ourselves. And that's the thing that causes all those ill-adviced bandwagons as well.

I think that is the case. But then again at least I was of the impression that Frodo knew his role so he was technically not a "cursed villager" but that was a new role - just as Ferny was a new role and not the cobbler as such.

EDIT: X'd since the end of the last page...

Mac, you didn't mention that you cross posted with me. I find that suspicious! :p

Mmmmm, dinner.

(Somebody's gotta find that suspicious, eh?)

Say, while I'm away, isn't anybody going to humor me and guess why Nerwen is diabolical, naughty, sinister and all around eeeeevil? Anybody...?

Precious!!! :D

All right. It is true that still, the Nazgul can't say whether the name coming from Ferny is going to be him or not. Nevertheless, I guess, if he could not come up with it himself, why to help him with suggesting such ideas...

Okay, shouldn't we just try to avoid the confusion and call him Beregond? It's not that horribly long after all.

Or Bereg. But there we go again...

Sorry I am simply too tired to think.

Currently the only one I find even a little suspicious is Mac, just because of that Ferny comment of his. Apart from it he looks rather innocent. But I wouldn't like to vote for him now after last game.

It probably tells something about my level of tiredness that I only now realised why Lommy found Mac's "to this end" suspicious, and laughed aloud at it for a while.

Do what? Sorry I just don't get what you're talking about.

Okay my vote is probably one of the most random I have ever cast.

++Lari

Because she has been mostly bantering thus far, and she deserves a vote after last game. I don't have an opinion about her at all, really, but I rather don't give a second vote for Golly today.

Off to sleep.

edit: xed with Legz. No we should call him Berry.

Didn't she say she had class or something earlier and wouldn't be able to be in the village?

Now why is there all this talk about Bill's options?

I could bet on it that through all this discussion at least some are trying to give hints to each other eg. at least Bill or / and a ringwraith are included in the speculation - trying to kind of hint at the other party of the conspiracy who they are...

Even if Bill is powerless right NOW the wraiths would not like to kill someone who is favourable to their cause accidentally in the beginning as that partnership could be worth gold in the endgame. So even if the wraiths are after Frodo and Butterbur as their first targets, they'd sure like to know the identity of Bill Ferny as well just as to make no bad moves during the first Nights.

I am saying it in the very same sentence. Right after the comma. "...that, [i.e.] trying to convince..." I guess it may just look somehow out of context, I wrote that sentence when I was reading the thread and later I could not realise what it belonged to (if in some way to Lommy's comments?) or if it was just a thought formulated not as response to anyone's post, but just general. It is referring to this thing you have been talking about since very early, this topic of whether we should talk about the Ringbearer, and at the beginning, you seemed to suggest, or at least not dismiss completely the idea that the RB should stay put. (And, speaking of that, only very later you reevaluated. Perhaps under the general pressure, but before that, you wanted to try anyway?)

Berry Gandhi? Or Gandhiberry?

Okay. I am going to vote and then go to sleep, and really don't expect me to be here for the DL. I will be sleeping.

But, whom to vote...

Suspicious at least in some way
Fea
Mac

Less suspicious at least in some way
Lommy
Agan
Gollum

Lack of participation or such (or not enough to ponder from them, at least)
sally
lari
Shasta
Nerwen
Menel
Durelin
LG
Brinn

Innocent-seeming, or at least with not enough suspicion for them
Mira
Rikae
Nogrod
Beregond
Rune

Hmm. I am still wondering about Mac. I am only afraid it may become a bandwagon. And the funniest thing is that I said about both of my main suspects that they are Ferny. Although Mac could be a Wraith more likely. And I don't have actually that much about Fea.

I will think yet a few moments, or see whom I cross-posted with. Maybe I will get some idea.

EDIT: So I crossposted with no one. Great. Hmm... all right, in that case, I will think about it a few minutes, then vote, and then go to sleep.

Okay. Let it be so.

++Mac

Mainly for that Ferny thing. Or, it would be better to say only for the Ferny thing. I really do not have much suspicion against anybody, and this at least was bad enough move in my opinion anyway. Whatever.

Good night.

In response:

Yes, Rikae, I am an Aquarius. The angle of Uranus to Jupiter and the Moon tells us, though, that I'm infused with watery influence, making me an exception to the previous statement.

++Lommy

Yes, I know you're famed for flip-flopping, Lommy dear, but that business of "No, I don't think Aganzir is a wraith, but I'm going to vote her anyway!" is just too much. :rolleyes:

I think this Day has not been in vain so far as there are a few promising leads already. So good job people!

But there's clearly not enough for me to go for a lynch for these louder ones as yet. So my votelist will still be:

Lariren Shadow
Shastanis Althreduin
Gollum the Great
satansaloser2005

They have basically been just in-character and there's not much help in their posts to catch a ringwraith. So with the logic of columnist Michael Kelly: as they are not helping us they're helping the other party.

Lari was like that the game before (her first) and she was a wolf there. So why should we believe her thisd time if she's just trying the same card - even if she really had timetable -problems as well? Then again it would be a little improbable she would start her WW-career with being a baddie twice... Interestingly enough Mira has come to argue for her I think twice already...

Shasta has been cloaked by his role entirely. There's nothing he has said but he has made a presence in the first part of the game. Of these I still think Shasta the most innocent-looking from an imagined premise that he has had no time to come online after his burst of posting early on the Day.

Gollum looks like an "easy lynch" (like Rune and I think some others as well have alrerady commented) and the question just remains whether that is true or is he once again playing the card that is assumed from his behaviour? Somehow I'm a bit baffled about his activity and tone toDay. Like in his post #90 he says first of Menel and then of Legate and me that "they stay". Like it was under his decision who lives or dies (and not a democratic vote) - and the only one to think that way is the ringwraith's way of thinking... And well many other things, like his continued insistence to set right things said about him and the fervour by which he claims to be the number one poster while actually providing very little indeed but being friendly - which sure is the most wolvish trait there is...

Sally then looks like Sally. No thoughts whatsoever she's given on this Day1. Just fun and banter. And yes she's cute and fine and funny... but she's that as a wolf as well... and she's intelligent enough to calculate her vote whilst being ignored by others...

I need to have a pipeful before I vote. :rolleyes:

Nobody finds me suspicious? Come on, people, do yuu want me to be killed at night or something? :rolleyes:

Lists are fun.

Most guilty:
Nerwen - but I won't vote for her today, because she hasn't played in a while.
Lommy - may get my vote.
Berry - Not getting a vote because of newbie immunity.

Neutral thus far, and I like to keep them around for closer observation:

Nog
Fea
Mac
Agan

Most innocent:

Legate - He just seems sincere. I like the way he's exploring different possibilities in a very transparent-looking sort of way.

Boro - He hasn't done anything remotely suspicious. :p

Everybody else:
No opinion

Not to further the idea that Lari and I are aligned, but I have a tendency to play devil's advocate. You'll notice that I also came to Mac's defense earlier in the Day. No need to lynch without looking at all sides of the issue.

Aganzir is not *hic* looking suspicious to me. She *hic* thinks it more likely that the Ringearer wants to be a *hic* wraith, which is under*hic*standable. She also *hic* thinks Frodo should not be our primary *hic* concern, which makes sense. There are worse characters out *hic* there to worry about. Her vote is odd, even *hic* though she acknowledged it was random.

Mac is *hic* a major puzzle, but I need more *BUUURRRPPP* time to look over his posts.

Back. Reading.

The votes and the justifications of them so far...

Soo fine and dandy! All the votes so far have gone to different players!

Greenie -> Gollum
Lommy -> Aganzir
Gollum -> Brinn
Aganzir -> Lari
Legate -> Mac
Shasta -> Lommy

Bah! They can all be construed as suspicious votes! Ones of being the "easy votes", others for trying to get rid of a dangerous opponent later on...

Although somehow I must say I will add Greenie to my list of possible votes toDay as her first vote is just too easy (yeah time-troubles and sharing a computer with Lommy etc. but that is soo secure a one!)

I think I should add this one to the mix as well: I just have a terribly bad feeling about this. It just looks so calculated! From someone who actually used his newbie-status so cunningly in his first game this looks like a natural follow-up were he a wolf a second time on this one...

Well, I kind of do, a bit at least as I can see you have been one of the prime motors on this discussion on Bill Ferny and what he should do and what not...

Good god, it took me long enough to catch up with this thread...

Do you guys really think the content of my single post was some sort of strategy? I hate to disappoint you, but I have a RL and it's more important than WW. I had already taken a sleeping pill at the time I made my post, and while I would've liked to contribute more, I also didn't want to crash on top my keyboard. I hoped to post this morning but I didn't have time, and I've been in class all day. I've had an exhausting week and while I'd like to, I simply don't have tons of energy for WW right now. I'm sorry if I sound irritable, but I am tired and I have no patience for anyone criticising me due to the lack of substance.

Anyways, I never meant to say much in my first post...I felt I should at least check in since I knew I wouldn't be around until late in the Day when half the players are sleeping. But I decided to comment on the banter because while it's entertaining, there was simply too much of it going on...and banter is an easy way for a wraith to hide.

I agree. While he may be innocent for the time being, it doesn't necessarily mean he'll continue to act that way. Frodo teeters on the brink between innocence and evil. And I don't think he necessarily has the village's best interests at heart. He'll simply do whatever is best for him.

Okay, I find anyone who thinks that Frodo would even consider sacrificing himself at this early stage a bit idealistic. Whoever is Frodo signed up for this game because they want to play...it'd certainly be no fun to give up and reveal from Day 1. I'd think our Frodo would want to have more fun with the role than that. Also, once Frodo is changed, he is on the side of the wraiths. A lynching after he has changed could mean a loss for the wraiths. And why would anyone want to lose?

That's a silly reason to vote for someone. If anything, you shouldn't immediately vote someone you have a grudge against because your opinion on them is slanted. No, it's better to wait and give a real reason to vote for them based on posts and behaviour in the current game, and certainly not from experiences in past games. I'll be seriously disappointed in you if you choose to vote for me for that reason alone.

Sorry about the repeating but I needed that myself as those vote-posts are more vague as they are...

So I looked another time at the reasons for voting this far. And they are just terrible (and they all can't be baddies!). :)


Greenie - "because he's the one I feel the worst about. I know that's not much said at this point"

Comment: very easy, picking the most "obvious" choice as the first vote. Suspicious indeed!


Lommy - "No, I don't think she's a wraith. She might be but I don't suspect that very much"; covered under the possible revenge-scenario of settling their relationship right... And adding the cautionary measure of: "But I wouldn't be surprised at all if Aggy happened to have Underhill or Ferny as her last name, and that's why I'm picking her instead of someone else just as unwraithish."

Comment: Even by Lommy's standards this is a bit too careful and too over-explained vote...


Gollum - "*Draws name from hat*"

Comment: Stating that one's vote is random means that you discharge yourself from the responsibilty of making the vote but still you make the vote and thus help lynching someone. Downright awful, undisgraceful, cowardish, irresponsible, worth of lynching on any occasion where you have no better targets!


Aganzir - "Okay my vote is probably one of the most random I have ever cast." And add to that this: "she deserves a vote after last game. I don't have an opinion about her at all, really".

Comment: Look above for my view of stating openly the randomness of one's vote. The following explanation kind of makes the vote even worse.


Legate refers to Mac's "Ferny thing" and says: "I really do not have much suspicion against anybody, and this at least was bad enough move in my opinion anyway. Whatever."

Comment: The first decent vote thus far... the problem is that it looks soo nicely like one an intelligent wolf (which Legate would be) could come up with... Not a reason to suggest lynching him toDay though - although I think of his eagerness to vote for Mac on Day1 a bit suspicious anyway - with these grounds...


Shasta - "Yes, I know you're famed for flip-flopping, Lommy dear, but that business of "No, I don't think Aganzir is a wraith, but I'm going to vote her anyway!" is just too much".

Comment: That looks like purposefully trying to ignore Lommy's actual and clearly stated point (which I think was over-explained but that's another issue). He refers to Lommy's reputation of being a flip-flopper and decides to ignore what she writes in the matter of fact - which is that she doesn't think Agan is a wolf / wraith but that she is Frodo / Bill. That is very much lowbrow and suspicious as I think Shasta is a reasonable guy anyway. So what is he thinking by making that argument? A forced argument?

ToDay I will not vote for:

Legate (got lynched early last game he was in)
Rikae (I think it's been a while since she's played)
Nogrod (I helped get him lynched last game and I don't think he'll ever forgive me if I vote for him on Day 1 again :p )
Beregond (newbie)
Mirandir (newbie)
Meneltarmacil (I'm tired of seeing him always die so early in the game)
Durelin (I don't recall her playing for awhile)

Of course, none of these players are excused from a possible lynching come toMorrow. Especially the newbies, as I've learned my lesson from last game. ;)

Which leaves:

Sally
Feanor of the Peredhil
Lariren Shadow
Shasta
Lommy
Aganzir
Gollum
Nerwen
Rune
Mac
A Little Green

I'll more likely vote for someone who's already received a vote so not to spread out the votes too much. Though no guarantees.

For what it's worth, I, at least, play the role given to me, idealistic though that may be. Regardless of what side he's on, Frodo is not a werebear, out for himself. Ordos work for the village's benefit, so as long as he is one, that's the side he has to play, even if it makes things more difficult later. Don't you think I might love to assign myself the role of unofficial cobbler (in all the games I've played, I've never once been a cobbler)? Only the moddess can tell us for sure, but it seems to me like Frodo turning "cobbler" before he's been turned into a wraith isn't really playing fair.

Of course, Frodo may have good reasons to keep quiet for the time being - but if he's going to play his ordo role to the best of his ability, he might want to think about playing in such a way as to trap his possible future wraith self (who knows, maybe he's smart enough to outfox himself, and the rest of us, in the end, anyway).

I will not vote for:

Rikae (she's trying too persistently to draw attention to herself; I shan't give it :p)
Mac (he's interesting to have around later)
Mirandir (she'll kill me in RL if I kill her first day of her first game)
Nogrod (I still kind of feel guilty about last game)
Beregond (newbie gets a free day one pass)

I will not abstain from voting for, if need be:

Durelin
Lariren Shadow
Shasta
Lommy
Aganzir
Nerwen
Rune
A Little Green

I'd rather vote for:

Gollum
Menel
Sally
Legate

I shall now go watch Grey's Anatomy. If you need me or Lari, we're in front of the television. :Merisu:

I forgot Brinn-
 

because I stole her list so I wouldn't have to get one from elsewhere.

My bad.

I'm totally willing to lynch Brinn today. No joke.

Heheh.

I don't know whether I've said the same about you before, or only thought it, but either way, fair enough. :D

True, true...


It's frustrating - I just reread most of the entire day to find something suspicious, but I didn't, and I don't want to construct something just to justify a vote. I didn't even find something semi-suspicious to blow up and put pressure on somebody to see what happens. Very dissatisfying...

I was grasping for something, anything, at the time. :)

And still am. As a newbie I'm trying not to make the easy vote, but... I have to rely, to some extent, on the opinions of others, as I don't want to lynch one of the good guys in an effort to be different. So I'm going to wait a while yet before I make my vote.

Heh, love you Fea. Looks like she figured out I'll stop randomly appearing in her kitchen to make her food if she kills me off Day 1. :D

Went back to see just what it was that unnerved me in Lommy's posts, and I think it mostly boils down to this:

If the wraiths know who Ferny is, they can probably find a way to tip him off. This just struck me as a sinister looking attempt to downplay the danger (sure, Ferny isn't much of a problem early in the game, but if he lives, and he very well might with his informant powers, he could cost us the game). The last sentence looks especially bad - just the sort of vague insinuation that baddies love to make.
Then there's this:
The lady doth protest too much.

This was coupled with her reaction to Mac's "to this end" remark, but overall, now that I examine these things, they start to look a bit more innocent.

I was just reminded of something someone else said that I ought to take a second look at, though. Back soon.

Oh you cynical Americans! Hasn't Barack Obama thought you anything yet? :rolleyes: (rolleyes for the possible ill-conceived idealism of that phrase...)

If I were Frodo - sorry, Mr. Underhill that is - I would seriously consider revealing it toDay... well I would hope to be able to bet for myself living toMorrow to conceal it in peace for toMorrow - and I would think it not twice but like hundred times... it would be an issue to me, really. A tough one looking at the good of the village and my role in it- and the possible change of my allegiance - and how to undo it before it happens as I would be for the village before the possible turnover. I couldn't play looking at it from the point of view of "let's see if I can choose my side later".

But that's personal.

And anyway we don't know who is Mr. Underhill and that makes it hard. The revealment of your stance (with Agan's and Rikae's) makes me wonder whether we can trust this Underhill fellow anyway... whatever he says s/he is. I started this game trusting he would play on our side and took it for granted but maybe everyone is just for themselves and not for the common good?

*Could it be? Really?*

Or at least some price their individual success higher than the good of their community - and thus themselves as well? I mean what is the good of yours when your neighbours suffer? Can you really enjoy that? Are you a human any more if you can?

One more reason we should stick to socialism like Legate called for!

:p


Coming to the bussiness then as my time runs out definitively.

It becomes between Gollum and Aganzir I think...

There were other terrible reasons but saying you make it random is the worst way of trying to ensure you don't have to stand for your vote later.

But which one?

Gollum acts almost hyperactive at times and that might suggest wolf trying to make better of his earlier submarine style being at stake.

Aganzir votes more clumsily she normally does and claims "random vote" whilst giving some really bad half-excuses for her vote...


++ Gollum

In a way Agan's vote looks more dishonest than Gollum's as her reasons are soo bad and in general her vote is more forced than Gollum's and one should think she would be able to do it better ehatever her role is. But that's just the point: were she a ringwraith she would have been more cunning and careful.

So Gollum looks to me the more promising choice. He has been unexpectedly active and still his posts are mostly devoid of substance and mainly banter when they are not concerned of him trying to paint himself looking good or "correct" any bad ideas about him, his vote is painted as to be a totally random (guilt! guilt! guilt!) & at times his posts are too carefully construed to give an impression of innocense.

ADD: And he's careful enough not to offence anyone or suspect them in a way that might create a backlash...


Greenie -> Gollum
Lommy -> Aganzir
Gollum -> Brinn
Aganzir -> Lari
Legate -> Mac
Shasta -> Lommy
Nogrod -> Gollum (Gollum2, Lommy1, Mac1, Lari1, Brinn1, Agan1)


Good night!