What a dreadful shame that the Trivia Game is based on what happens in the films rather than on what happens in the Books.<P>Imagine the frustration of playing a quiz game, where the answer to "Who kills Wormtongue?" is Legolas. <P>I'm a great fan of the films but, for me, this is going a step too far in legitimising the film story over the book story.

I agree Saucy. You have the different pieces, why couldn't one of them be the books?<P>Frankly, I have my doubts of this as a reliable source of spoilers. I can't imagine PJ saying, "I think I might do this a different way but damn, they're marketing the trivial pursuit game." Remember that shooting just ended and they are still editting. I saw on another board someone post that the game said one of Sam's children is named Frodo. This is undoubtably true, but doesn't seem likely to be something that will work it's way into the film.<P>This is a flash in the pan game, and they know it. Hasbro want to strike while the iron is hot and I doubt they would be all to concerned about accuracy. I also find it hard that three movies (even these three movies) can provide enough plot points to fill all the questions on those cards. I wonder if they'll go to the books for more, as long as they don't contradict the film.<P>Then again, maybe I'm in denial about Legolas shooting Grima. A rumour that has been around for a long time. I guess we'll have to wait and see.<P>H.C.

Using my detective (!!) techniques, I am proposing what happens regarding the witch king and the Denethor / pyre incidents.<P>The pyre scene will take place at another time (before or after) than the witch king at the gate episode. What I mean by this is that neither will have an effect on the other as they do in the book.<P>Clues:<P>The pyre scene was definitely filmed. We have proof of this from Ian McKellen’s tour of Rath Dinen with Quickbeam from theonering.net<P>We see a nazgul about to confront Gandalf, shadowfax <B>and Pippin</B> in the TT DVD ROTK preview.<P>We see a quick shot of Pippin holding Merry on the field of battle in the TT DVD ROTK preview. Merry looks like he’s in pain or distraught (or both). Look closely behind them. That is definitely Gandalf. Look (very) closely on bottom right part of the screen. Is that part of a horse’s body?<P>We have news from the lotr trivial pursuits game that Theoden dies under snowmane’s body.<P>Therefore I surmise:<P>Gandalf confronts the witch king at the gate.<P>The horns of the rohirrim are sounded<P>The Witch King flies away to join the battle<P>Gandalf and Pippin follow on Shadowfax (but are not as fast)<P>The WK confronts theoden, eoywn and merry as in the book.<P>Theoden dies under snowmane<P>Merry and Eowyn confront and kill the witch king<P>Gandalf and Pippin arrive to see this scene, but not in time to assist<P>Pippin holds Merry in his arms whilst Gandalf confronts the enemy to protect them<P>And as said earlier, the pyre scene may come before or after this.<P><BR>A couple of things that might go against this:<P>It MIGHT not be the pellenor fields that we see pippin holding merry, but I would hazard a guess that it IS<P>We do not see Pippin wearing a helmet when he is on shadowfax with Gandalf. I suppose he could be holding it....<P>It might not be the witch king at the gate, but I find this hard to believe. People are mentioning that you cannot see his helmet as shown on thelordoftherings.net. why do we need to see this? It might be revealed straight after this, i.e. the witch king can move back his hood and reveal himself to Gandalf.<P><BR>What do you all think? <P><BR>

I'm surprised my loyal Spoiler Spies haven't reported this for this rumors and spoilers thread. (I'm talking about YOU!)<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE>1. A Storm is Coming <BR>2. Hope and Memory <BR>3. Minas Tirith (featuring Ben del Maestrol) <BR>4. The White Tree <BR>5. The Steward of Gondor (featuring Billy Boyd) <BR>6. Minas Morgul <BR>7. The Ride of The Rohirrim <BR>8. Twilight And Shadow (featuring Renee Fleming) <BR>9. Cirith Ungol <BR>10. Anduril <BR>11. Shelob's Lair <BR>12. Ash and Smoke <BR>13. The Fields of The Pelennor <BR>14. Hope Fails <BR>15. The Black Gate Opens (featuring Sir James Galway) <BR>16. The End of All Things (featuring Renee Fleming) <BR>17. The Return of the King (featuring Galway, Mortensen, Fleming) <BR>18. The Grey Havens (featuring Sir James Galway) <BR>19. Into The West (performed by Annie Lennox) <P></UL><P>So we're sure that, not only does Billy Boyd do that solo, but it's on the SOUNDTRACK!<P>What do you guys think of those other tracks? I think Into the West is going to be the most emotion-evoking track ever. Kind of like the "resolution" tune in the end of the FotR soundtrack, when Sam chases after Frodo in the boat, only with more sadness and yet finality. *Wipes a tear* I can't wait.

I think that the Into the West is more like the Gollum's Song of ROTK, as in it's the song with lyrics being sung during the credits.

Re; Knight Of Gondor's spoiler about Annie Lennox doing a song on the soundtrack. I sure hope it isn't a "pop" song. That would go against the whole musical atmosphere of the soundtracks. (personally, I thought "Gollum's Song" was too out of character with the rest of the soundtrack from TTT)<P>[ October 24, 2003: Message edited by: andreadawn ]<p>[ October 25, 2003: Message edited by: andreadawn ]

Must...have...preciousss...gollum! So can't wate the soundtrack. The names of the tracks sound great though I'm a bit suspicious concerning Annie Lennox and Mortensen with no offence. I hope the Mordor parts don't sound same like in the Towers cd and the whole Soundtrack will be better than one could even imagine!

Gotta disagree Essex (oh, you all know this was coming ). I think it's much closer to the book.<P>-Denethor orders Faramir's body to the tombs and to gather wood. Pippin goes in search of Gandalf.<P>-Gandalf confronts the Witch King at the gates.<P>-The Rohirrim arrive and the Witch King goes to rally the troops.<P>-Pippin finds Gandalf and they race up to save Faramir.<P>-The Witch King confronts Theoden and Theoden is crushed under his horse.<P>-Gandalf and Pippin are confronted by another Nazgul. I'm sure we will also get shots of Denethor's BBQ preparations. Oh my God, will they make it in time. <P>-Eowyn and Merry confront the Witch King.<P>-Gandalf and Pippin deal with the other Nazgul.<P>-Witch King is defeated.<P>-Gandalf and Pippin confront Denethor at the tombs, as in the book.<P>-Eomer discovers the body of Theoden (emotional death scene) and then the body of Eowyn and races off.<P>-Gandalf and Pippin arrive on the scene and Pippin discovers Merry.<P>H.C.

Hmm, I wonder what PJ will have done with that bait-setting as a final battle? (I mean the bit where they try to distract the Eye of Sauron...but you knew that already, right?) There was only one mention of it in the trailer. I really hope they get that feeling of utter hopelessness and selflessness in it...<BR>The soundtrack sounds great...only I can't stand Annie Lennox. Her songs are soooo repetitive! And they are played too often on the radio (BBC Radio 2 at least) whenever she does a new one. But I can't wait for Billy's solo!!!!<BR>I have pretty much accepted that Legolas kills Wormie. After all, Orlando did say that Leggy has a few more tricks up his sleeve...although hang on, wasn't that the Oliphaunt thing?? Maybe there'll be both?! Ooh and what did PJ just win? I forgot. I know Orlando got best breakthrough award at the Hollywood Awards Gala, but didn't PJ get something at the awards in New York or something? And Orlando accepted for him. Oops that was slightly off topic...<P>Just watched a video on the Pelennor Fields (I bet the Palantíri will not be included at all.). It looks amazing. And morbid as this sounds, I really can't wait to see the heads go flying. Somehow the thought does not make me squeamish. Dissecting a kidney didn't either. Hmm, I am a weird girl, aren't I? Oh, but this whole film is going to be so sad!!! I hope it makes me cry, no film has done since the Lion King!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I bet the Palantíri will not be included at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm 99% sure they will be there. It sure seems Sauron thinks Pippin has the Ring and how else would he get the idea except from the palantir. I even noticed in Towers how it is placed in the room behind the balcony where Saruman and Wormy view the troops from.<P>I can't imagine how Denethor's ensnarement through the palantir of Minas Tirith will not be presented. It's such an integral part of understanding this character. I've read that Aragorn will not be looking into the palantir until after Pelennor Fields which makes some sense. It more closely connects cause and effect. Also the danger of it will be very apparent after tje audience sees how Denethor ends up.<P>H.C.

The Palantir will most definitely be there. TheOneRing.net just posted these pictures from the Dutch version of the ROTK photo guide, and as you will see there are two photos of Pippin and the Palantir and one of Aragorn with it...<BR>Take a look!<BR><A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/1056" TARGET=_blank>TheOneRing.net</A><BR>Additonally this photo group also includes photos of Denethor's pyre and photos of Sam and Frodo on Mount Doom, and in orc wear.<BR>

Excellent, those pictures are wonderful!!!<BR>The only reason I didn't think the palantíri would be in there is because the Nazgul has seen Frodo holding the Ring in Osgiliath. He would presumably have reported this to Sauron. Why then would Sauron belive that the Ring-bearer was being held captive by Saruman? Although looking at the pictures, it appears that the palantír incident will be at Rohan. But still, it will be Saruman's palantír. It wouldn't make any sense to Sauron if the Ring suddenly moved from Osgiliath to Edoras, would it? Sauron would have assumed the Ring was going to Minas Tirith. Oh well, I'm confusing myself now!

that's the one biggest question jackson has got from TT. ie the nazgul 'sees' frodo with the ring. as we've seen in the tt ee preivewof rotk, jackson states that sauron thinks pippin's got the ring....hmm? how is he going to pull that one off?<P>I used to think that the nazgul can only see the ring when it is put on, but looking again at frodo on weathertop, when he TOOK OUT the ring to put it on, a nazgul turned his head sharply and looked directly at him.<P>confused.........

They could have made a better pyre... it looks like a haycart.

it looks like the picture's prove that pippin will not confront sauron in the palantir until they get back to edoras.<P>although how jackson's gandalf holds onto the palantir I'm not sure. just touching the seeing stone seems to put him in contact with sauron. Surely a little bit of cloth can't protect gandalf from the all seeing eye?????????

That's obviously the gist of it.<P>Since none of us have taken Using Palantiri-101 I don't see why this should be considered an error. Gandalf handles the palantir in the book as well. I think he folds it within his cloak.<P>H.C.

yeah I know he does in the book, but what I'm saying is how he can do it in the film, seeing Jackson's change to him seeing the 'eye' when he touches it?<P>not a mishtake, surely?<p>[ October 24, 2003: Message edited by: Essex ]

Wasn't that the One Ring that made him see the Eye? Anyway, I suppose Gandalf would be capable of picking it up using some material between him and it as a kind of barrier.

There was a glimps of the Eye when Gandalf put the cloth over the palantir in Fellowship, but I always took that as Gandalf simply sensing the taint of Sauron as opposed to making direct contact. I have little doubt Gandalf would continue to sense that while he was carrying the palantir. I'm sure it was uncomfortable for him to do so, but that's a long way from Sauron knowing Gandalf is dialing in.<P>H.C.

Notice Pippin in the forground of this picture.<P><A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/1056/view/9175" TARGET=_blank>Denethor's Pyre</A><P>Lending credence that this will be more like the book than not.<P>H.C.

Did anyone notice me in this picture? <P>Well, okay, so it's not me, but it's one of my friends! We're Knights of Gondor, don't you know.

Man, this is going to be an emotional wreck.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "I saw a rough cut of the sequence," Lesnie says, "with all the bluescreens in the shots, and it was still a staggeringly moving sequence... you're cutting back and forth between the four hobbits and Galadriel, and everyone is standing on the jetty next to the Elven boat that's going to sail away. <B>Bilbo's gone and Gandalf says goodbye, and they summon Frodo, and then the other three hobbits suddenly realize Frodo is going as well...</B>" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1068607918" TARGET=_blank>Link</A><P>They are going to sand-bag the audience. Make them think that it's only Gandalf, Bilbo and the Elves going and then hit them with Frodo. <P>This is will be great though theatre owners should likely be handing out tissue at the doors going in.<P>H.C.

Oh wow...that's pretty awesome, the way they play with the ignorant audience. Though I must admit that I'll probably be just as excited when that part comes.

I'll probably hide Kleenex boxes in my ratty, black leather, "Aragorn" bag, when I go to see RotK. I can really see PJ sand-bagging the audience with Frodo leaving for the West. As it is, I cried like a baby while reading it in the book. I'm going to be bawling uncontrollably while watching it!

I saw the preview on the computer. Anyway, I heard that Arwen is to reforge Narsil to Anduril. I hope that they don't cut out the Eowyn/Faramir part. As for Aragorn fighting Sauron, I don't think it's Sauron, but the person for him in physical form. We'll just have to see.

Just to be clear, Arwen is not reforging Narsil in those shots in the trailer. Other shots of the scene show they are just anonymous elves.<P>H.C.

I picked up the RotK photo guide today, and learned a few new things about the movie. First of all, when Aragorn looks in the Palantir, Sauron shows him Arwen, pale and dead, the future foretold if Aragorn wins the battle. The visual companion said that the Evenstar pendant shattered. (?)<P>Another thing about Arwen is that she is ill in Rivendell, and in despair about the war, thinking Sauron will win after all. This must be where she is lying in bed, and Elrond says "You gave away your life's grace. I cannot protect you any more."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What if Theoden says to Wormtongue at the Orthanc, "you were not responsible for what you did, I forgive you, etc. You do not have to stay with Saruman, etc." And then Saruman's eyes light up and he reveals that Grima killed Theodred. Grima flies into a rage and does the deed, whether it be by pushing or stabbing Saruman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree that they should just take Wormtounge and Sauruman's death from the books and tweek it so it fits Isengard.<P>If I was doing the ending this is what it would be like:<P>Right after the end of the final battle/mt. doom scene we see Sam and Frodo waking up to a be greated by Legolas, Gimli, and Merry. After a bit of conversation Frodo or Sam asks where Pippin is. At that moment Pippin comes (this is to make the audience think for a moment that Pippin died when he was squashed by that troll). <P>There is a scene where the Elrond, Arwen and Aragorn storyline comes to a close. Elrond exepts Arwen's choice to stay and aknoleges Aragorn as a true King. <P>Then there would be Aragorn's ceremony in which we can clearly see Eowyn and Faramir together (their meetings at the Houses of Healing would have been shown before)This would also be when Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn and others will say their farewells to the hobbits and Gandalf.<P>Cut to them walking back to the Shire. I'm actually now sure what I would have them do once they reach the Shire so I'll skip right to the Grey Havens.<P>At the Grey Havens I would put tons of refrences to book things like Bilbo being the oldest hobbit, his wishing he could see his old ring again and many other funny Bilbo parts. Frodo and Sam have a last discussion where Sam urges Frodo not to go and how he wish he wasn't so divided between him and Rosie. Frodo replies to this with telling Sam that he dosn't have to be divided any more. Some more mushy stuff and then only the three hobbits are left.<P>As they travel home there is a voiceover. It talks about what happens to the felloship with little clips of everyone. Finally as the voiceover ends we see Sam walking alone into Bag End. Then he says "Well, I'm back." <P>Then I would add one more line which I wish Tolkien had added after Sam's line.<BR>The voice from the voiceover would say:<P>"And they lived happily ever after, to the end of their days."

I heard something about a party they have in the Shire. Can you see Gandalf the WHITE dancing like Gandalf the Grey did? Not me. But I would think they would be a little more complete about the ending, not just concentrating on the hobbits.

Gandalf doesn't return to the Shire in the books, so I strongly suspect he isn't there. I've heard of the party as well and suspect it will be a device to show the change over Frodo. It may echo nicely with the party at the beginning of Fellowship where Frodo was in the middle of it having fun. Here I suspect he will be withdrawn.<P>Personally, I really hope they don't spend a lot of time (if any) wrapping up the stories of the other members of the Fellowship. The ending should be about the Hobbits, and in particular about Frodo.<P>H.C.

As for wrapping up other characters' storylines...I suppose it depends on how affected PJ has been by the Leggyboppers' response...though I doubt he would do more Leggy stuff especially for them... <BR>I really want to see this movie NOW!!!!!!!! I wonder if it will make me cry??? If so, it will be the first time since the Lion King... <BR>But I must say, I haven't heard about the party. Where did you hear about that?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Q: Who kills Grima Wormtongue?<BR>A: Legolas <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Awwww... I wanted it to be that random Rohirrim!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Re; Knight Of Gondor's spoiler about Annie Lennox doing a song on the soundtrack. I sure hope it isn't a "pop" song. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It would be great if it is something like the beginning of Pavement Cracks, same sort of sad sound. I think it could be very good.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Hmm, I am a weird girl, aren't I? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No weirder than me! I also want to see that part. I have quite a morbid streak.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> This is will be great though theatre owners should likely be handing out tissue at the doors going in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Or maybe they'll just put a drain in the floor of the theatre to prevent flooding. <BR>I think I shall need at least two full boxes of kleenex. *sniff*

Hello you all!<P>I hope this hasn't been posted before, but I didn't see it.<P>My mom used her Sherlock Holmes-senses again, and after some research she came to the following conclusion: Eomer is going to die in ROTK.<P>...<P>Wait, wait, don't kill me! This is how she came to it: first she read a review about the 20 minutes preview of ROTK (<A HREF="http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=16302" TARGET=_blank>here</A>). In it, the writer says:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and what appeared to be the unexpected death of a character that, to the best of my knowledge, is much different from his fate in the book (though I’ll allow that it’s been a while since I read it). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmmm, an unexpected death of a character that isn't supposed to die?<P>Then, a while later, we read an intervieuw with Karl Urban (for all you dummies, <A HREF="http://www.lordoftherings.net/index_editorials_karl_interview.html" TARGET=_blank>it's here</A>) it say's:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The stakes are raised. Eomer goes from just protecting and serving the people of Rohan to protecting and serving the people of Middle-earth. He's faced with making the ultimate sacrifice--<B>his life and the lives of his men</B>--to ensure the survival of future generations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, my mom did the maths (if you can say it that way...), and came to the conclusion that our dear and beloved Eomer dies! I hope she's wrong...<P>Namarie!<P>Aethelwine.<p>[ November 16, 2003: Message edited by: Aethelwine ]

I think you are wrong. The first quote is easily explained by someone who's memory of the book is faulty (as he admits himself). As for the Urban quote, he does sacrifice a lot, his uncle and (he thinks) his sister.<P>H.C.

Hi! I'm danni and i'm a newbie. Does anybody know if there are previews of rotk in ireland b4 the 17th?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Q: Who kills Grima Wormtongue?<BR>A: Legolas <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002423&p=1" TARGET=_blank>It would now seem that no one kills Wormtongue (or indeed Saruman) in the theatrical release.</A>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think you are wrong. The first quote is easily explained by someone who's memory of the book is faulty (as he admits himself). As for the Urban quote, he does sacrifice a lot, his uncle and (he thinks) his sister.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>All I can say is that I keep my fingers crossed, and I'm hopeing your right!<P>It really sucks that Grima and Saruman are taking from ROTK, doesn't it?<P>Navaer,<P>Aethelwine.

If Eomer dies, who becomes king after Theoden? (Having Theoden live and Eomer die seems...counterinstinctual. Out with new, and all that). Surely they wouldn't put Faramir there in a gross act of kingdom-conflation, would they? He's a great guy, but he's not one of the Rohirrim, to say the least. Even though he does marry Eowyn. ("No longer do I desire to be a Queen...oh, wait.")<P>All right, I'll stop scaring myself. But I hope it's not Eomer - hopefully the death referred to was Saruman's, which seems to have become ROTK's hot potato. He has to die at some point or another, so, to quote Jane Austen, it does not much signify when. At least, it doesn't signify so much as Eomer's death would!

ToRN has a link <A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/1154" TARGET=_blank>here</A> to some great images from the film, which are from some card game or other. Many of them are completely new to me.<P>Given the reference to <B>King</B> Denethor, the comments on them are not totally reliable. But it is interesting to see the reference to Dunharrow. It seems that there will be an encampment here prior to the Muster of Rohan and it also looks (from the similarity of the tents) that this is where Elrond gives Anduril to Aragorn.<P>Nice picture of the Witch-King wielding a sword. I wonder where this takes place, as it doesn't look to be on the Pelennor. And it doesn't look like the confrontation with Gandalf either, as a later picture has that as being the scene where Gandalf and Pippin on Shadowfax are confronted by a Black Rider on a Fell Beast rising above the City Wall.<P>There are some great pictures of Pippion and Gandalf in and around Minas Tirith, including ones of Pippin lighting the beacon and Gandalf rescuing Faramir, neither of which I had seen before.<P>And another new one on me is the shot of Frodo as "Gorbag's prey", presumably in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. One for the ladies (well the Elijah fans anyway), I think. <P>Any other thoughts on these images?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And another new one on me is the shot of Frodo as "Gorbag's prey", presumably in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. One for the ladies (well the Elijah fans anyway), I think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh my gosh!!! that picture, I was wondering about how they were going to show that scene. Poor guy, every time I see a photo like this I just feel more and more sorry for the poor charater.<P>Cool photos! But if anyone has not seen them they are extremely spoilerific <P>But not a single photo from the ending of the story. That is one part they are really keeping under wraps (which is really good, because I do want that part to be a surprise)