We shall never surrender, Birdy. Besides, after five minutes in England during the season of mists and mellow sogginess you'll begin to wonder if it was worth coming at all.

We've already been through the arguments concerning occasional small lapses. This thread is about the really heinous crimes against literacy, such as mis-spelled thread titles, which are indicators of a lazy and cavalier attitude towards writing.

That's all right. We find it very easy to remember that oncoming lorries denote the wrong side of the road, regardless of what other meanings the word for that side may possess.

I second that motion.

This post was composed without recourse to a dictionary or a spell-checking program.

I feel misunderstood. I do like standarized spelling (reading must have been quite difficult before its imposition), and it does make it much easier for me to read threads, and, in fact, I do notice the thread titles particuarly. The thing I object to is speaking of it in terms of "You are lazy corruptors of the language who cause us all agony! Stop being lazy, you fools!" (which may well be the sort of thing that leads to the dreaded (sp?) ) rather than, "Look, this is how we do it here," preferably followed by instructions concerning ways to accomplish it. As you point out yourself, Maril, modeling is far more helpful than criticism, particularly for those who are more used to writing in some other way. Indeed, I have trouble thinking of it as laziness, since I find it more difficult not to use standard spellings. In any case, to the degree that this thread has made helpful suggestions, it's fine.

I did notice that, actually, and you're quite right. Off I go to post in that.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

Susan I am a big fan of abbreviations.
And guess where I learned many of my favorites?

JRRT's letters!

Fav
def
w/out
v [very]

are the one's which come most readily to mind.

After reading Mr. Underhill's posting manifesto I have tried to cut down radically on my shortcuts however.

I am actually getting a little scared to post on this thread, now that I know just how much scrutiny I am really under! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

And I better not mention my pitiful understanding of when to use [], {}, or - or commas.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

ill join you there Lindil. What are {}s for anyway? I mean they look pretty and all but otherwise what are they really used for?...i mean i use them occasionally just for the sake of it but...ok now would be a good time to stop my rambling....they arent really nessesary...ok youre all now free to shoot me....

Anyway, its the brits who drive on the right side of the road.

Lindil, abbreviations are fine in your own personal writings or pretty much any medium other than a message forum, where almost the only things people have to judge your personality is your writing. If you're willing to take such shortcuts here, then you'd take them in any facet of your life.

Also, having such abbreviations breaks up the flow of the post and makes it much harder to read. And don't think I haven't noticed your own phonetic abbreviations and been annoyed by them; I tolerate them because there's nothing I can do about them.
However, for me, "[Whoever] is def my fav char, w/out a doubt." is infinitely more irksome and much harder to stay focused on (especially when the whole post is like that) than "[Whoever] is definitely my favorite character, without a doubt." The former shows sloppiness with the language and a lack of caring for your audience, while the latter shows that you not only care about what you write, but you care about the reader as well and want to make reading your post a worthwile experience.

Incidentally, that's what brackets are for: they are used to replace a word or phrase in a quote with the quoters own words rather than those of the quotee.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

I don't think abbreviations show sloppiness with the language, they just show a wish to get one's thoughts and ideas out quickly. Tolkien used abbreviations, and he loved language.

Oh, and one more thing, I personally don't see anything wrong with using elfs (don't know whether this has been discussed yet (didn't have time to read three pages on grammatical and spelling mistakes)) as a plural of elf. Elfs was the plural before elves. It's only within the last hundred years or so that elves has been the plural. And while I'm on the topic of plurals, whenever we talk of mythological dwarfs, dwarves is incorrect. Dwarves is typically the plural for little person, while dwarfs is the plural for mystical creature dwarfs.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Eldar14 ]

<sips his mint julep and adjusts his string tie>

Ah beg yore pahddon, missie, but ah am a native Suth'ner, bohn and raized in th' great state of South Ca'lina, and as such, ah am an ek-spurt on all thangs su'th'n. And ah mus' take p'lite umbrage (a good Su'th'n word) at yore spellin. Ev'ry proud Suth'ner know that it ain't "ya'll", it's "y'all", which is short for "yew all", and is both sing'lar an' plural at th' same time. "All y'all" is propuh as well.

An' you kin tell by the fo'goin' why th' 'postrofee key on most Su'th'n keyboards is blank from constant use...

My parody of my ancestral language aside, I find misspellings to be common, a fact that I surmise (my own personal substitute for I reckon/deem/guess/suppose) is caused in part by how quickly and passionately people respond to some topics. Trying to spill my ideas onto a keyboard before they disappear has caused me to commit more accidental spelling errors than almost anything else.

However, these individuals who are attempting to excuse their incorrect spelling on the basis of what I can only call "contextual" or "phonetic" understandability need to be horse-whipped. It is one thing to betray your lack of erudition by making consistent and uncorrected spelling errors. It is another thing altogether to defend those errors and accuse those who would correct them of pendantry.

I cannot defend the English language on the basis of it's simplicity, certainly, for it is one of the hardest and most irregular languages in existence, or so I have been told. However, people have been accurately learning and using the language for hundreds of years. For a person of normal intelligence to fail to acquire enough knowledge for proper usage of his or her native tongue in twelve years of schooling bespeaks a mental lethargy I cannot fathom. Nevertheless, it happens every day. But for someone to defend that mental lethargy and uphold it as a virtue...that conclusion requires a suspension of thinking altogether. In the words of McKellen's Gandalf, it is abandoning reason for madness.

I pray that the normal denizens of this thread will forgive my tirade. Those of you who agree will understand. Those who don't will probably have to have a dictionary near to hand in order to understand what I have said. But at least they will be able to look up the words, since I have made every effort to spell them correctly.

(Post Scriptum: My proofreading skills are not what they used to be. Please withhold your guffaws should I have missed a typo in the foregoing.)

Eldar14, Tolkien himself chose Elves and Dwarves as the plurals of both races. The proofreaders wanted to replace those spellings with the traditional ones of elfs and dwarfs. He made that choice to set them apart, especially the Elves, from the children's fairy story elfs.

Quite true, Belin. Generally I prefer to be helpful. But as I said on page one, the point of this thread is to complain. Thus the melodramatic title. If I were one of the transgressors the title would have been "AUUUUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Y cn't ppl spel!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yes, I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt. But if the error's in the thread name, it's hard to justify.

lindil
Okay, let's have a special edition of the Lord of the Rings, for those who 'luv' 'abbrv.'

Five hundred and twenty-nine pages to go, my dear. Enjoy. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

-Maril

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

Thenamir, what happened to your accent? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, though; people have been bemoaning the Internet because they believe it will lead to the loss of the written word as an art form. I don't see this myself (though I have to admit my longhand has deteriorated through lack of use.)

I've found my writing style and spelling have been vastly improved by participating in forums. I credit it with keeping the written word alive for me. But that is only the case because I have reached back and tried to remember the lessons of good grammar and spelling that I learned many, many years ago.

But if you are using "chatese" and "internet shorthand" in all of your writings, even when it is not necessary (and yes, I suppose there is an argument for shorthand being used in some of these overcrowded chat rooms), then you are "cutting your own throat". For the time is coming when these lessons in writing will become very necessary.

For most of our forum members who are still in school, the time is coming - quicker than you think - when you are going to have a real need for the grammar and spelling that some other members are demanding of you now. Are you going to write your college essays in "shorthand"? Your resumes? Your letters and e-mails to important clients in the working world?

If you ask most employers what they are seeking - and not finding - in prospective employees, they are going to tell you "someone with good communication skills." And yes, that does include writing! You are missing the perfect opportunity to practice these skills while participating in these forums.

And if nothing else; it should be remembered that this forum is dedicated to a favorite English writer. You can only really honor the author by honoring the written word.

Well yes, Tolkien did you use elves instead of elfs. But he was one of the first to do so. I've heard people say the elves is the post-Tolkien form of elfs. And on the issue of dwarfs, in the introduction thingy (yes thingy) in my copy of the Hobbit by Tolkien, he discusses his use of dwarves, and how dwarfs is actually corrects, and that he just uses dwarves for a certain group of dwarfs in the mythos, but I don't remember the specifics.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Eldar14 ]

Whoa!

I think the thrust of my last post was missed completely.

I was pointing out the irony of my source of abbrevitis, not justifying it.

As I mentioned, as per Underhill's request [ and a nagging conscience] I really have tried to cut down on abbreviations and edit my posts more carefully.

I actually appreciate alot of the newer folks w/ [oops] with higher [or shall I say normal] standards of written communication.

It is a real challange for me though. I sat reading JRRT and Thoreau in the woods instead of many [ and I mean many] days of high school and really missed out on alot of the grammar and co. that the zealots in this thread take for granted.

So is [ a serious question]
BTW
IMO
AFAIK etc.,

all out?

And at what point do we concede that some abbreviations have become regularized parts of [internet] communication?

Surely p.s., Univ. and the many abbreviations in use 20 years ago [pre-e-speak] elbowed there way in and are now naturalized citizens of english writing.

I do take exception to two points though Susan and that is that

While those who have taken the time to learn something 'properly' are easily annoyed [and this applies to me also in areas other than syntax, grammar and such] by those who do not follow the 'rules', one can by exercising a little dis-identification with one's personality and training, see past the superficial and into the essence. Most of us here gladly do that with our much esteemed non-native english speaking posters here. It is only a 1/2 step farther to extend the same mercy to the English speaking natives.

We can if we choose judge someone by the content of the post not the wrapping.

please do not get me wrong I am not advocating sloppiness but I am advocating being able to see past others sloppiness.

I will concede that I do take quite a few short cuts in life, indeed at times my brain seems to sniff them out as a matter of sixth sense, however I also go out of my way to involve myself in various arts [not too mention my religion of conversion] where no real short cuts of any kind are allowed. Tai-Chi Chuan, Orthodox Christianity, The revised Silmarillion, and so on.
So I must disagree w/ the full sweep of your statement. Humans have many different parts of their brain that work in different ways and levels of quality in different people. So not all habits in oneself, will cut across all aspects of the personality.

The absent-minded scientist can be painfuly meticulous in the lab. The artist who can not cope w/ the real world can often navigate his artistic realm with astonishing mastery. Left and right brain development is not often [and I would go so far to say rarely] even within a given individual.

btw I am hereby resolved to bust out Elements of Style and my Bazerman/Wiener Writing Skills Handbook and 'finish' my high school education. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

lindil, I truly appreciate the effort on your part. I have always found your posts to be insightful, intelligent, interesting... and damned frustrating to read. Often I've given up after the first few sentences.

Most of all I appreciate your using paragraphs at long last. That has made the greatest difference in your writing. I breath a sigh of relief and look forward to perusing your insights with ease in the future.

I thank you.
My eyes thank you.
My optometrist, battling my growing near-sightedness, thanks you as well.

-Maril

BTW, Ith., I was a little rough on you back there kiddo. Bad night at the ranch. Will you accept apologies for my tone?

(First set of italics my own).

In the absence of any other explanation, I'm going to assume that the intelligence criterion isn't fulfilled in a lot of cases.

And, you see, that's the real nub of this gist: when you don't take care over your spelling and grammar, people think you're stupid; or at least have plenty of ammunition for saying that you are. Unless you say something pretty clever in chat-ese, you may be writing "gandlf (sp?) is best coz he stiks to his mishun and so he wins", but I'm reading "I am a moron, and my opinion doesn't even matter to me".

Maybe it is a virtue. These people aren't confining themselves within the straitjacket of meaning, as I do. Presumably this gives them greater freedom of expression, so I'm going to try it:

fdshviuhurigvREGERGHt greg hreu8gy844t4363vb vgfuids ghvfdvFGREGRg greh gSASTghvbruihb

Which, I think, categorically explains once and for all who Tom Bombadil really was. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Hullo Squatter of Amon Rudh,

In answer to your statement ...

... exactly so.

The silver lining being (to my perspective, anyways) that poor spelling and grammar can be a handy weed-out criterion when you're faced with limited time to spend at the Barrow Downs and only have time to read the most worthwhile posts.

When I must forego reading eloquent thoughts and viewpoints carefully expressed by witty wordsmiths and learned loremasters that recall the prowess of renowned minstrel Daeron of old, having given such wordsmiths top priority and having done all in my power to keep up with their posts but constrained by real life responsibilities such that reading all their gems is more challenging even than obtaining a silmaril, I feel a sense of loss and regret.

However, it doesn't take long to observe those whose consistent "style" features sloppy grammar, inattention to spelling, and mediocrity of thought. Ignoring posts made by people in this second category I do quickly and with nary a backward glance, feeling no qualms whatsoever.

Gandalf the Grey

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

And for the last time, the word "definitely" is spelled DEFINITELY, not DEFINATELY. I see this one all the time.

Okay, here's one for the Misspelled Words Hall of Shame: Thinked.
http://plaudersmilies.de/eek6.gif
I seriously have seen this one here at the Barrow Downs. Luckily, I've only seen it once. I hope I never see it again, either.

Hey Nev - who'd'a thunk? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Indeed.

I'd also like to add "bestest". Bit of an overkill, don't you think?


edit: Hey! this is my elevenhundredy-first post!

edit2: Four ones in a row...I guess that would make me a doubled Pile-O-Bones. I think I'll go line my barrow with Wrigleys [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

ok, enough self-agrandizing. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

My favourite spelling/language error is when in RPGs (or fanfics), the poster wants to use archaic speach of some sort to make it sound better, but has no idea how, or gets their words mixed up, so you get "Alas, my name is..." and various confusions of thee, thou, thine, etc.

~I'm sorry If someone has already mentioned this, but I have a considerable headache and therefore probably skipped a bunch of posts.

bestest is probably intended as a pun along Alice in Wonderland lines [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

This is the context...doesn't look like much of a pun to me.

Note 'book'. Not books, 'book'. And one does not 'make' a book, unless you're talking about the printing/manufacturing of said book.

Aaaah! No! Stop the insanity! *Elenna falls on the floor and starts twitching spastically*

All of these errors could be avoided by people merely taking some time to THINK about what they are writing. And maybe paying attention to an English class every once in a while.

There's that word again: "think". How many people in a given group can be relied upon to engage their brains before attempting an action? From my experiences, I should say about one in ten. Most people simply can neither plan ahead effectively nor review their actions critically once performed, which is why usury is such a profitable business.

ah, Squatter, even the very wise can not see all ends

so, say 10/10 are thinking, just 1/10 happens to do it in a way you (or me, or anyone else, each picking up different one of ten) find(s) it convenient [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

This thread is probably the most scary thread in the whole net. Why are you people so obsessed with how other people spell? Ok, maybe the word 'bestest' isn't some normal spelling error, but you still get what he/she want's to say. I've been following this thread ever since I, ehrm, promised myself never to come back to this scary thing (this thread that is, god it's scary), but I think that all of you really dis other people who doesn't have English as a native language, and some people might be quite young to.... So, ok, you are all welcomed to be angry at me, but I just wanted to say this....

Mlo, as far as I figure out this thread is not intended to scorn people who misspell (like myself), but to make them more attentive to their writing. So there is no need to be scared and no need to expect anybody getting angry with you. And no, sometimes I can't dig out the context among all 'luv expurt mu woce' kind of posts, and yes, I do believe my own posts are sometimes just very unintelligible due to lack of proper language knowledge. I personally started to check all my writings with outlook spell checker program (edit: and I still need to edit it once it is posted) before posting, which I consider as positive effect of this (and several others of similar kind) post

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

Hey Rosseiliantiel:

Ya wanna bet? Talk to my bookie. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

* runs back to work before anyone can call him on "ya" or "wanna" *

Gandalf the Grey

Hrmph....
*can't think of anything more intelligent to say*

Mlo, it has been mentioned several times in this thread that the true target of our sometimes vitriolic criticism is laziness. None of us is going to be laughing and pointing at every little mistake made by someone who is obviously still learning English, as those who take the trouble to learn a foreign language at all are clearly not guilty of the sort of bone-idle ignorance of which we are complaining.

We are talking about posts which have blatantly been composed and submitted without any thought whatsoever to their meaning, content or legibility, apparently just for the sake of having said something. It's not a diatribe against poor spelling per se, but against the attitude of mind that would rather put (sp?) after a word than spend two minutes looking it up in a dictionary.

To my unmitigated shame and disgust the people who most commonly exhibit this indifference to the written word are people for whom English is their first, and in most cases only, language. That these are also the people most likely to respond with "but it doesn't look like it sounds" only increases my despair. The intention of my own comments thus far, both here and in a similar vein elsewhere has been to attempt a reduction in the number of thoughtlessly inelegant posts on this forum, not to crow over others' less proficient command of the language.

What Squatter said.

Mlo, there is also something else to be said in response to your post--actually two points.

We also get another message, one that perhaps the person who wrote 'bestest' would not want us to get. That message is that the poster does not spend much time writing his or her posts and does not care to have his or her ideas accurately represented. This message is thus counter to the purpose of posting, for it discourages readers. See Gandalf the Grey's point about how he chooses which posts to pay attention to. Quite often laziness in writing creates the sense in readers that the ideas conveyed are not terribly well-thought out and probably aren't worth reading.

Why does it scare you to learn that some readers read this way? Is this idea new to you? That is all too often the case, that young and new learners of a language do not understand that words convey meanings and messages beyond those of the "content". As has been said countless times here, the arguments are not being marshalled against second language learners or those with disabilities or even against the odd typo and mistake, but against the frame of mind which tolerates sloppy writing and which thinks that the form of language doesn't matter.

I would think that, rather than being scared, it would be valuable to understand how other people read certain kinds of writing, to learn that words are not just a gussied up package for marketing ideas, but that the very words and language and style used to convey an idea are part of the meaning of that idea.

It is really a false notion to think that words and ideas are separate things. No idea is fully formed until it is given shape and form and expression in language.

Let me quote Marshall McLuhan here:

Respectfully,
Bethberry

I still think this comment is among the most telling as far as our commentary here is concerned and directed, and it neatly makes Squatter's point.

Personally I think that this thread is really helpful, and have made me pay more attention to my posts (not that I wasn't before, but still).
I generally dislike spelling- and grammar mistakes (in Swedish - my first language), though, I do that quite often myself, at least when writing/speaking English. I am mostly very picky about it, and really dislike it when I make mistakes. It really isn't fun when I am reading things by others that has loads of mistakes either.

I have also found this thread highly amusing, but then, maybe it's just me... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Just my two pieces of mithril,

Eärendil

My own thoughts on the topic echo those of Maril, Rimbaud, Squatter and Thenamir. Thena, your diatribe was great but, as I'm sure you're aware, will sail right over the heads of those who need it most.

LOL!!

Maril, if you need to re-edit a post, you can erase the previous "edited by so-and-so at such-and-such time" so only one will appear.

Simple solution to the problem of sloppy posts: don't read/respond to them. I don't. They aren't worth my effort.

Hullo Bethberry,

You say,

So important was this to the Elves that on awakening at Cuiviénen, they named themselves "Quendi" ... meaning, "Speakers." From that day forth, Elves have ever striven to represent themselves with careful excellence, reaching the highest levels of artistic mastery in language spoken, sung, and enscribed on scroll.

Notably, Faramir once remarked that

Thus, we've a legacy to uphold.

Gandalf the Grey

Dear Gandalf,

*smiles at the unusual daytime visit*

It might well be said, then, that if the elf-wannabes would only persist in their folly, they might become wise. *nods to Blake*

They might also take their cue from purists such as you. I bow to your fitter expression, in which there is much delight.

Bethberry

I've found quite a useful thing for people not sure of their spelling and sometimes of meaning of words they use

just look it up for yourselves:

Merriam-Webster Toolbar

It goes with the IE 5 or higher, and allows one check the words without going anywhere from the site currently being read - one needs only to highlight the word in question. Enjoy

two reasons
 

Firstly, I have recently revived the counterpart pair of the thread in question:

Nominations: Best Thread Names

So it could be good idea to balance the euphoria down that way.

Besides, the new software employed (VB 3.0) does not allow to edit thread names, hence increased necessity of caution when posting new thread titles.

Let us be reminded!